That was quick, somebody is really pushing this PC social engineering to the max, I smell Valerie Jarrett. I'm surprised they have lowered the GT for serving in MARSOC but the GT has been lowered over the past 15 years for many MOS in the Corps. From What I have read that with new technology like GPS, laser ranger finders, today's soldiers, sailors and Marines use their brain housing group less. But this is new, if you didn't score high enough on the GT when you took the test you can retake it again ??? When I served what ever your GCT was, you were stuck with that GCT because it's what was used to decide what your MOS would be. Back in the "Old Corps" you didn't get to pick what field or your MOS would be, you were assigned a MOS for the good of the Corps. This wan't a surprise at all because I read the RAND Corp. study last year. >" study by the Rand Corporation found that 85 percent of 7,600 surveyed operators within all of SOCOM opposed the idea of serving alongside female counterparts. Many cited fears that female operators would harm combat effectiveness and provide a distraction down range."<
I agree with the SOCOM Operators. We all know that's not going to work out well. But as far as a Chopper Pilot or member of the USAF Pilot...I don;t see an issue. But in the field....man we are just looking for problems! AboveAlpha
Nope, you have been able to retake it for over 30 years at least. If I remember right, you can take the test once every 30 days. And it is not so much the GT that is the issue, but some of the other composite scores. When you are trying to a specific MOS, most of the real qualifiers are in the other scores based upon combining several scores in different ways. http://www.military.com/join-armed-forces/asvab/asvab-and-marine-corps-jobs.html For most jobs, GT is all you need. But if you want to be a Commo Dog, you need an EL score (General Science + Arithmetic Reasoning + Mathematics Knowledge + Electronics Information). There are a lot of sub-scores that vary, depending on the needs of the job. If I remember right, the ASVAB is good for 6 years. Most of the time people only retake it if they try to reclass, and either their original test is no longer valid, or their scores were not high enough for their targeted MOS. And even to this day, most Marines join under an "open contract". That means they have no idea what their MOS will be until shortly before graduation when the DIs tell them what it will be and where they are going for school. However, there are always exceptions, I was one of around 15% in my boot camp platoon that had his MOS in his contract (for me, 0300 with Marine Security Guard duty after graduation).
In my original post you might have noticed I mentioned the GCT which isn't the ASVAB. The GCT was labeled in the 1970's to be politically incorrect. The same thing with the IQ test, it was called racist by the left. But the Marine Corps still uses the GCT, all officers are required to take the GCT and some enlisted billets require the taking of the GCT because the GCT has been shown to be a good predictor of success in the military. There was no ASVAB when I enlisted. You took some test at the recruiting station or the induction center what would be called MEPS today to make sure you can read something more than a comic book and can add, subtract, multiply and divide numbers. The GCT was administrated during the first week of boot camp. It has all of the same sections that the ASVAB but it's politically incorrect so say the liberals. I suppose it was just to hard for minorities, that's usually when something is called politically incorrect. Interesting read. But I digress. I just thought the minimum GT score of 105 was kinda low for MARSOC, I would have expected a GT of 110. I'm aware that during the 1990's they lowered the minimum GT scores for many MOS's. My MOS was 0849 and back in 1969 the minimum GT score was 110. In the early 90's it was lowered to 105. a few years later it was lowered to 100 with a comment why it was lowered. They decided with todays technology in the case for calling in fire support missions there's less thinking to do in your head because you have GPS, laser range finders, laser designators and calculators to do all of the thinking for you. I wonder if they are rethinking all of this after seeing the Russians EW capabilities today ? You had two Navy patrol boats who lost all electronics including GPS and radio communications and were captured by Iran. A few decades ago when you had to call in an artillery strike, naval gunfire support mission or a close air support mission all you had was a map, compass, binoculars, a radio and your brain housing group.
The Navy is reviving celestial navigation in the curriculum again to their midshipmen. The aviation version of a no frills (non-electronic) form of navigation would be pilotage. Basically looking at landmarks on the ground such as roads, buildings, shorelines, rivers, mountains, etc The downside is this generally requires clear weather. Since the 1990s, GPS is the most prevalent form of navigation in aviation. It revolutionized RNP (required navigational precision) approaches. Any sort of EMP/EW knocking out radio navigation aids and satellites would certainly leave an aircrew up (*)(*)(*)(*) creek without a paddle in low visibility conditions.
The Navy was quick to react as soon as they learned of Russia's EW capabilities in Syria. Remember LORAN ? I know most LORAN stations have been deactivated when GPS became the norm. I wonder how many U.S. Air Force and Navy LORAN stations are still active today ? Before LORAN long range aircraft like bombers and cargo aircraft use to have a small glass bubble on top of the fuselage so the navigator could take readings using a sextant. During the 1980's I was able to go aboard a B-52 bomber and it has a built in sextant like a periscope. In this photo of a C-47 you can clearly see the bubble for using a sextant just behind the cockpit. -> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe..._skytrain_n1944a_cotswoldairshow_2010_arp.jpg It's just not ships and aircraft who might have to return to the old ways, infantry officers and sergeants better know how to use a map and compass because that GPS unit might become disabled.
That whole Russian EW Capabilities threat issue is SELF CREATED!!! The U.S. Navy wants the the full Over the Horizon Targeting and EW Warfare System deployed which I am fairly certain breaks the treaty. Every time something happens that a BIG DEAL is made out of it...FOLLOW THE MONEY!!! Example...Small Chinese Diesel Sub pop's up in the middle of the Kitty Hawk Carrier Strike Group.....just at a time when the U.S. Navy was telling the Japanese JDF that the Kitty Hawk was too old a Carrier and needed to be replaced by a new Nimitz Class Nuclear Carrier Strike Group as the ONLY reason the Kitty Hawk was still existing is was because it was NON-NUCLEAR!!! All of a sudden in the middle of the Kitty Hawk Strike Groups War Games....a small Diesel Sub pops up in the middle of the Kitty Hawk Strike Group. The NEWSPAPERS GO NUTS!!! KITTY HAWK OBSOLETE...NEEDS TO BE REPLACED BY NIMITZ CLASS CARRIER NUCLEAR!!! We got the USS. George Washington Nuclear Carrier Strike Group approved for deployment in Japan!!! And members are STILL trying to say we didn't know that old Chinese Diesel Sub was not there even though we have Seawolf and Virginia Class and La. Class Sub's along with Ocsea ,NEPTUNE and SOSUS...and so many other things I could post all day never mind Satellites!! But...we could not find or know this old diesel Chinese Sub was there???? B.S.!!!!!! AboveAlpha
How many threads are you going to start on this exact same topic of your opposition to women in the military? I don't really care to post on this topic as all you do is just start over with a new thread on this same topic. How many times now? 3, 4, 5?
When I was in the RSOP section in my last unit, I was always in charge of making the range cards for our crew served weapons. This included a great many things, part of which was the grid coordinates for where the gun was placed. It always freaked my crew out when I could make an 8 digit coordinate with just a map and compass, and have it accurate to within 50 meters. I could also eyeball locations 500-800 meters away, and still be accurate to within 100 meters. Of course, I learned such skills when I was a grunt, before we had GPS. Our 1st Sergeant was impressed the first time he checked my card, and among things I had done was pre-plot dead zones and their 8 digit coordinates for artillery fire missions if needed. And yes, I had my own personal GPS. I would fire it up after I had finished the card, and make any corrections if needed (including walking out to the dead zones). But such skills are mostly lost simply because we are no longer teaching it to our soldiers. I always loved giving land nav classes, and showing people that they could indeed plot a course on a map, and walk 1 kilometer into the desert and find an ammo box at the expected destination. All it takes is practice.
What happens if a REAL WAR breaks out and all our GPS and Fancy Targeting Methods go dark?? Your telling me they are not teaching our guy's how to properly call in coordinates....have them fire one or two rounds...then readjust for accurate fire??? Now if that is true I am worried!!! AboveAlpha
It's more than likely those who have become dependent on today's technology will not be able to fight. They will be defeated on the battlefield. Have you ever been inside a business and there's a power failure and the cashier doesn't know how to make change without using the cash tender on a cash register ? We have kids graduating from high school who can't do simple math in their heads without using a calculator. Today you are even allowed to use a calculator when taking the math part of the SAT. My MOS was 0849, Shore Fire Control Party Man . Back in 1969 the minimum GCT for a 0849 was a 110. In the early 1990's it was lowered to 105 and then again lowered to 100. The reason given was that with GPS, laser range finders, radios that don't need fine tuning you don't have to use your brain that much. Then they replaced the 0849 MOS with the 0861 MOS, Fire Control Man. Both of these MOS job titles a few weeks ago were called politically incorrect by the Obama administration and the Marine Corps has been ordered to change the job titles of any MOS job description that has the word "Man" in them. I (*)(*)(*)(*) you not, go back to post #1 and read it. This liberal political correctness has gone way to far. But I digress. Before GPS and laser range finders an artillery FO or Naval Gunfire Spotter had to use his brains when calling in a fire mission. This brings us to military binoculars. Unless you are really really good at determining distances and ranges with the naked eye, some can most can't you have to use the ticks one sees when viewing through military binoculars and this is when you have to make mathematical calculations in your head during the stress of battle. When you look through military binoculars you will see horizontal and vertical ticks on the lens. Range finding
Well everyone I ever worked with could call in coordinates using a map and compass and they didn't need to use a Range Finder scope or binoc's but they would use them if they were available but they didn't need them!!! One shot.....and they would call back in and the next rounds would come right down where they needed to come down!! But I cannot believe THEY WOULD NOT TEACH THESE SKILLS ANYMORE!!! AboveAlpha
Oh yeah...at least once a month a am at a store and the total bill is $16.76 so I give the guy or girl a $20 Bill....a $5 Bill and a two $1 Bills and hand them a single penny and ask for one $10 Bill and five $1 Bills and one Quarter...and there is a reason I ask for this!!! And they look at me like I just asked them to explain Particle/Wave Duality. AboveAlpha
Calling in an artillery mission at Fort Sills isn't like calling in an artillery mission in a strange place being shot at the same time. On an artillery training range you are usually in an established OP that has been used continuously for decades. So you pretty much know where you are. You have to shoot an azimuth so when you adjust the fire the cannon cockers know when you say right 100 meters it might be left to them. Basically it helps if you know the GTL (gun target line. How about this situation: You're on a hill by the sea, the target is an enemy destroyer, you are guessing it's four miles off shore. If you know the class of the destroyer and it's length or beam depending what position the ship is in, you can use the mill ticks on your binoculars to tell exactly how far the target is off shore. Then by shooting an azimuth reading you can determine the coordinates of the ship. If that doesn't work, then you are going to have to start bracketing the rounds until you find the distance. Very time consuming. Some people can tell what 50 feet looks like from a mile away while most can't. Works the same way out on the flat plains or desert where it's flat with no trees, rock formations, hills, buildings, etc. to use to triangulate compass readings to get an accurate coordinates. What they teach you in school is the basics, it's OTJ training is when you learn all of the tricks they don't teach you. One of the most difficult fire missions is adjusting an air burst round, getting it on target. It's really hard to determine if the air burst is on target (over the target) or if it's 100 yards beyond the target or 100 yards short of the target. Lessons learned, use a WP round when adjusting air burst fire. You'll be able to tell when you are on target then you can call for the fire for effect, "High explosive, fuse time, six guns, three salvos, fire for effect." Then all you have to do is perform a body count.
We almost NEVER were in range for Artillery use and we sure as HELL were not going to call in Air Support unless absolutely necessary and forget about an Rocket filled with cluster munitions!! LOL!! The idea was get in and get out asap! AboveAlpha
Are you referring to Iraq ? (*)(*)(*)(*), our grunts and armor were moving so fast, the artillery couldn't keep up.
Your right about that.....the USAF and USN. and Apache's did not want to be working in areas where MLRS cluster salvo consisted of three M270 vehicles each firing all 12 rockets. .... or those firing a GMLRS rocket were incoming plus they were hundreds of miles ahead of such things but no one wants to fly back into that. Most of our JOBS were done well before any large scale ground troops were operating. Our JOB was primarily to deliver a message or ultimatum. 99% of the time everyone went home very much alive on all sides. It was just that 1% of the time that irked me. They had already decided their answer would be...NO....so why not kill as many of us as they could? We took many precautions to avoid this. And with the exception of one really stupid mistake by me....it all worked out. AboveAlpha
"Mixed Gender Lift" "Physical standards will not be lowered" Because they have already been lowered. Hey Mushroom, was the PRC-47 still around when you were in the Corps ? -> http://www.liberatedmanuals.com/TM-11-5820-509-12.pdf A great radio, good range but it took a real comm guy to fine tune them, a lot of math calculations involved. The "P" designates that it's a man packed radio weighing in at 42pounds with a 16 pound battery you are humping 58 pounds along with your ruck sack, rifle, ammunition, water and rations. Now the only ones who actually man packed the PRC-47 were the Marines, the Army always transported the PRC-47 in it's fiberglass case weighing 65 pounds usually two soldiers manhandling the case. It was Marine FAC teams that usually man packed the PRC-47 in the bush. Well one day we were suppose to establish an OP on top of this mountain, a NGF spot team, arty FO team and a FAC team with one Marine rifle platoon to provide security since any time Charly discovered an OP they would use up to an entire battalion to eliminate the OP. CH-46's landed us at the base of the mountain instead at the top of the mountain not wanting to make our presence known. It was the toughest hump I ever was on, at times a 60 degrees grade. Some times we were on all fours climbing up this mountain. Sweat was just pouring down our faces. At times I had to be pulling my radioman up the mountain who had a PRC-25 on his back. I had two spare PRC-25 batteries in my ruck. Then on my right I see this big Mojave Indian Marine with a PRC-47 on his back passing me up. He was the FAC radioman. I really felt for him, even thought asking him he wanted me to carry his rifle. No (*)(*)(*)(*)ing way could any female Marine could have carried that PRC-47 up that mountain. Today the PRC-47 would be labeled politically incorrect, not gener friendly.
Only radio I ever saw in service from 1983-1993 was the PRC-77. That was all we used at the Battalion and Company level.
