Why you can't have an honest or civil conversation with most racists

I'm sure that most Egalitarians have noticed that you can't have an honest or civil conversation with the average racist on the internet. The reason is because most of them are either dishonest or uncivil.

There are usually two types of racists on the internet:

Intellectual Racists - They try to validate their racism using statistics and pseudoscience. They avoid racial slurs and argue that they are not really racists.

Hardcore Racists - They don't hide their racism. They use racial slurs and express intense hatred for other races. Sometimes they post racist imagery to shock and offend their opponents.

The worst kinds of racists in my opinion are a combination of both. They use the racist propaganda + racial slurs + deny they are racists.

Political Forum provides a good balance where Egalitarians can debate racists without having to deal with the hardcore variety. You can't use racial slurs on here. You can't flame your opponents so racist posters are forced to be civil. This guarantees that the average racist who comes here and actually stays because they can abide by the rules is an intellectual racist. Of course that means in typical fashion the average racist who comes here is dishonest. They deny that they are racist. You can't have an honest conversation with someone who does that. They say they are not racist and then they make typical racist arguments.

My advice to people who argue with racists is to never let them off the hook over their racism. Call them racists. Call their views racist. They will say that racism is a control word and you are trying to stifle debate with it but that is not the truth. In reality the charge of racism maintains that their views are morally wrong and motivated by ideological bias.

 

I do not hate black people but you would probably refer to me as racist, which I am fine with. When you call me racist without having a rational discussion then it simply reinforces my life experiences.

Is it racist to point out blacks commit more crime? Have more children out of wedlock than any other race? Have a poorer work ethic? All of these are facts yet they are deemed racist by those that cannot see the problems plaguing the black community. Acknowledgement needs to occur before any change can happen.

 

Racism isn’t an act, it’s a motive. You could say all of those things with positive motives but you could also say them with racist ones.

Your first two statements are probably statistically accurate but such statistics are meaningless on their own. Young people and males also commit disproportionately more crime for example. In all these cases though, it’s still a small subset of those large groups who are actually committing the crime and it isn’t necessarily anything fundamental to that singular characteristic that causes it (after all, there is cross-over with all three). If you treat all black people you encounter negatively on the basis of this statistic, that would be racist, especially if you don’t treat all young or male people in the same manner.

Having children out of wedlock isn’t in itself automatically a bad thing (obviously somewhat a matter of opinion). It’s perfectly possible for an unmarried couple to bring up their children successfully and possible for married people to be poor parents. It’s clearly something more complex that you’re referring to which is why such generalised statements can be a problem (even if it’s not intentional). Again though, broken families and dead-beat parents can be a problem across society so treating all black people differently without knowing anything about their individual circumstances would be racist regardless of the general statistics.

Your statement about work ethic is problematic because it’s a matter of opinion rather than a statistical fact (I’m not sure how you could back it up but you didn’t try anyway). That’s where suspicions of racism (fair or not) will naturally start to come in since it appears to be leaning towards feeding a preconceived conclusion rather than an honest assessment of the facts and that conclusion would be that black people are somehow fundamentally inferior to everyone else. That would be undeniably racist.

But then I wouldn’t expect any better from an American.

 

I never charge someone with racism without having a rational discussion. You can point out that someone is racist or an argument is racist and still discuss a topic. I don't have a problem with people pointing out problems in the Black community if they are actually factual. Blacks committing disproportionate amounts of crime or having more out of wedlock births is a statistical fact. I think Blacks having poorer work ethic is just a stereotype. The question is what is the cause of these stats? Racists will say that this is just the way Blacks are because of innate biological differences. If that is the case then these problems can not be changed. Egalitarians believe the underlying cause is the affect of institutional racism on the Black community which has made Blacks disproportionately poor. Poverty does have an affect on behavior. People who grow up in a poor environment are more likely to commit crime, more likely to have children when they are not married and may even have a poor work ethic because of their upbringing.The solution to these problems is to improve the environment. You can't expect a group of people to change when they are living under the same conditions. Individuals can change by making better choices but fora large number of people to change at once there needs to be a fundamental change in living conditions because how you are brought up has a major impact on your mentality.

 

I do not believe blacks are inferior to others, they may learn differently and have different areas of strengths or weaknesses as a whole but they are not incapable of existing on a level playing field. I will agree that racism has had its toll on black people but as a group (and i am generalizing here) they seem to be moving away from the character of their relatives who were hard working, family oriented and strived for equal opportunity to a group that feels they are unable to escape their ancestors pasts; blaming everyone other than themselves for falling futher behind as a group and seemingly ignoring many of the actual problems that blacks cause themselves.

Once a non-biased person witnesses a small percent of the population committing a much larger percent of crime per capita, decades of fatherless homes and poverty, and constant cries of racism when no instance was presant a bias or animosity will begin to form. It is a perpetual downward slide, one that i am not sure how we as a nation can exit from.

 

I do not treat black people any differently than any other race, but i do typically enter into the meeting with preconceived notions.

I should have said fatherless homes, I know several couples that have reasonings for not being wed that are amazing parents. Broken homes are absolutely one of the main problems in society, it just seems to be more common (in my experiences which are limited) in black homes.

Like i said, my opinion and views have been shaped by my own encounters which have overwhelmingly been negative. That is not to say they have all been negative - which is why I try to treat all people with kindness until they personally give me reason to behave differently.

 

First you have to identify the true racist and you need look no farther than the liberal democrats .

 

That is about as stupid and as wrong of a statement as saying that only Southerners are racists ( in this country).

 

Got any evidence of this?

This if the lack of civil debate that the OP referred to.

 

IMO it's people like you that keep problems going on longer than necessary. People learn from gradual experience with others. Arguments with people like you cause some to prematurely harden their positions when they might otherwise have gradually dropped them. Your behaviors can also be copied by others, making the effect more widespread. IMO you show signs of being an extremely self righteous and intolerant person yourself. You seem to wish to stereotype others in order to consider than non-people unworthy of politeness or consideration.

 

I think that negative cultural attitudes in the Black community are very much a product of growing up in a bad environment and that these attitudes would change if the environment improved. I don't know what it's like to grow up Black and poor. I am Black but I grew up middle class mostly in White middle class towns. This feeling that you can't get ahead because the society is racist is not new. At a time it was very much the truth and while Blacks were poorer during the 1950s and 1960s crime rates were not as high. There is a reason for high Black crime rates beyond racism and beyond cultural attitudes. I think it has to do with gun laws and drugs. The way the system is set up it's very easy to get a gun and very easy to get arrested for selling drugs so incarceration rates are high for Urban Blacks who grow up in a bad environment where they think stealing and selling drugs is the way to get what they want in life. There are many aspects of the environment that need to change in order for people as a collective to change. Yo always need to consider why the problem exists before you can come up with solutions.

The true racist is the one expressing racist views and they are usually not Democrats.

Certainly this is one of the dishonest debate tactics I'm talking about. If someone thinks Democrats with all of their progressive policies are the true racists they are not having an honest conversation.

You shouldn't blame people like me for racists remaining racist. I didn't make anyone racist and I'm not keeping them that way. Honestly I don't really come to these boards because I think I am changing anyone's mind. I come to shut racists down and show them they are wrong as well as the readers who may be on the fence on these topics. I may be self righteous but I am not intolerant. I have tried to understand racism and I am polite to racists when they are polite to me. But make no mistake I believe racism is evil and no matter why you became a racist racism is wrong.

 

Because by definition racists are ignorant.

 

Well most of the blacks came from the south , so you may be on to something . Who came up with Affirmative Action , and Quotas ?

 

Affirmative Action , Quotas and hate crimes !

 

Like I said look no farther than the liberal dem's when you want to ID the racist .

 

Affirmative action is racist? Quotas are racist?

How the hell is trying to help those who need it racism? Only racists want to stop affirmative action. If it wasn't for AA, colleges and offices would still be only white males and the American economy would be in the tank because half the work force (women) would be in the home instead of working or in schools. AA levels the playing field and advocates equal opportunity. There is no equal opportunity if somebody won't hire you despite your skills.

 

What "skills " ???? Your ramblings proves my point .

 

Oh yeah, that unsupported nonsense about how Affirmative Action is racist.

 

The only consideration is race or sex , so merit, ability ,and experience are non factors . Just the way the libs want it .

 

I'm not sure where to begin.

You begin your post by lamenting the fact that you can't have an honest or civil discussion with racists, after which you classify them into two categories. Once you've established this, you encourage others to call them racists whenever you can, which presumably includes here on the forums, in the midst of discussion. Now, by your own admission, the term "racist" is a pejorative word implying that one is immoral.

So how do you expect to have an honest and civil discussion with a racist if you can't agree not to insult them in the midst of a discussion? We can both agree that no one likes to be called a racist and finds it very insulting because it implies, as you stated, immorality and dishonesty. I think a better approach would be to lay out your basic premise, allow people to make their arguments, and then, if you must, reserve your insults for the conclusion of the argument.

I have read some of your previous posts and discussions on this topic with other members and found that they all ultimately either deteriorated into name-calling or became off-topic, not to say that this was all your fault, only that it happened, for whatever reason. I would like to debate you, assuming we even disagree in the first place, and can promise an honest exchange if you are willing to do the same.

First, I need you to provide me with a very clear definition of racism so that I can determine if I am in fact a racist and, if so, to what degree I might be categorized as such. I'll give you a starting place of my views so that we don't waste too much time getting started: I believe that racial categories, primarily distinctions between blacks, Caucasians, and east Asians, are real and useful categories. They represent clusters of genes and, though imperfectly, can be used to make rough generalizations about physical appearance, susceptibility to disease, and to a lesser degree personality and cognitive differences. Hypothetically, given a fixed environment as a frame of reference and assuming we had no information about an individual aside from his race, I think we could make generalizations about that person that would be more accurate than random guessing, though they would be very imperfect generalizations.

Well, let me know what you think.

 

I can't agree more. I have so much I'd like to say on this topic and think I have a fairly unique experience that many of you would find interesting, to say the least, but I don't think it would be useful in this thread because I've already committed to a discussion about racial differences. I have a feeling that we will end up disagreeing on that topic, at least to some degree, but with respect to the issue of environment and the effects it has on the development of people belonging to ANY race, I cannot emphasize enough how much I agree with your statement. ..

 

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To have an intelligent conversation about racists, you have to first define what a racist is. A racist is a person who thinks one race is superior to another. A racist is not merely bias, discriminatory, prejudicial or bigoted, they actually believe that, in this particular case, all white people are superior and black people are inferior. Unfortunately, we are living in a dumbed down society, people have taken to using the word racist as to include bias, discriminatory, bias, ethnocentric, prejudicial or bigoted behavior when it plainly isn't.

A person with legitimate concerns or grievances is not automatically a racist. A person who wants to associate or live around others like him/her is not automatically a racist. A person who can quote bona fide statistics is not automatically a racist. Even a person who hates, is not (strictly speaking) automatically a racist.

If a person cannot tell the difference between racism, prejudice, bias, ethnocentric and bigoted attitudes or conduct, should not be involved in conversations like this.

 

Racism, simply defined, is hatred or intolerance based on race. This definition is what people commonly mean when they refer to racism and I think it's the most useful. This definition also appears in some dictionaries.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/racism?s=t

Racism

n.

1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human racial groups determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to dominate others or that a particular racial group is inferior to the others.

2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.

3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

Now as to your criticisms and suggestions I will say that I usually debate in the way that you have recommended. I don't just shout racist at people to detract from debate. I do lay out my arguments first. I understand that the word racist is pejorative and offends people however if you exhibit the behavior of a racist that's what you are. We have words for a reason and some of them have negative connotations. Calling someone a racist in a debate is just as sensible as calling someone a pedophile who expresses a sexual interest in children or calling someone a thief who thinks it's ok to steal.

Based on your own expression of your views I believe that you might be prone to believing there is a genetic basis to racist stereotypes which is racist (it fits the first definition of racism) but if that sentiment is divorced from real animosity based on race e.g. hatred or intolerance you might not be a malicious racist, maybe a benign racist. Yes, I just used two more categories for racist. I have encountered different types of racists before. Some believed in racial differences and seemed to leave it at that. They might have even had sympathy for people they considered to be racially inferior. Some used their belief in racial differences as justification for disliking other races. The benign racists tend to be more intellectual and the malicious racists tend to be more hardcore. Both groups are racists just different types and to different degrees.

You might find this excerpt from a book I own to be helpful:

Basically Graves is saying that racist notions of human differences are scientifically false and can be demonstrated to be such. If they were true and your only position was that races are different in the ways you described then you wouldn't necessarily be a racist according to Graves. I would argue that anyone who tried to prove that races differ in mental characteristics is motivated by a racist ideological agenda even if such claims were true. I think the charge of racism is really based on your motivation, the reason why you think the way you do about race.

Perhaps we can discuss this on another thread or if you prefer just express your views on this thread since it has already come up.

I disagree. The definition of racism that I used is in common use and defined in the dictionary. Racism isn't simply about belief in racial superiority, hatred or intolerance is very much a part of the definition. This is important because if we stick to the rigid definition of racism that you are using racists can weasel their way out of the charge by claiming that don't believe in racial supremacy. In truth most of them do but they can lie and say they don't then claim they are not really racist. The definition I used forces them to either be intellectually honest or at least let people recognize when they are lying. Now a person who has legitimate racial concerns (e.g. saying that high Black crime rates are a serious problem) or quotes legitimate statistics that they believe to be problematic is not necessarily racist but if they use it to justify hatred and intolerance for other races then it is racist.

Racism is an insidious ideology and racists tend to be intentionally deceptive to make their views socially acceptable. Defining the word racism is very important in these discussions because we need to know what we are talking about.

 

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Right off the bat, you changed the meaning of the word (in bold) to suit your argument. Why can't people argue about race? Well, you just proved one reason.

 

I don’t see how you could not treat them differently, if only subconsciously. Every encounter we have with a person comes with preconceived notions but if you’re notions are based on the (perceived) racial grouping on the individual, that is the very definition of racism. We’re all guilty of it to some extent because it’s something of a human characteristic, but that’s all the more reason to acknowledge it.

In America, that certainly does seem to be the case. That doesn’t mean it’s (directly) because of their skin colour nor does it automatically say anything about black people in general. There could even be a factor in how black people in America have been treated in the past and are today.

So now you just need to ask yourself why, if not all of your encounters with black people have been negative (and I’m sure not all of your negative encounters have been with black people), you’re defining the negativity on the basis of skin colour alone? How much of this perception a self-fulfilling prophecy, where you make note of black people doing bad things but not black people doing good things (and vice-versa)? Why not define the group of people who you had negative encounters with regardless of skin colour?