The Absurdity: the U.S. position on China

The U.S. has been spending tens (maybe hundreds) of billions of dollars to counter the Chinese military capabilities.

Yet China would basically not have been able to sustain any of this military build-up if it was not for its trade with the U.S.

In recent years the economy of China has ballooned, allowing the Chinese government to fund a massive military build-up. Of course, in terms of number of people China has always had a big army, but the equipment, planes, and technology to be able to fight in a modern war are very expensive. Most of this rapid growth in China's wealth was due to America's longstanding trade deficit. China would not have all this money if it wasn't for the access to U.S. markets.

How does it make sense to be spending money to counter a potential threat when you are also the same country that has basically been funding this same "potential threat" ?
It seems completely asinine.

 

have you thought china would think its other way around, they would think they make so many stuff for US market to trade with Paper that has avg inflation rate of 3.3%/yr, bring all the pollution from US -> china due to the fact, that manufacture are always not environment friendly, if war breakout those paper china trade with their labor and manufacture good are worthless. in other words they are tied to US, and we are tied to them, which make both party less likely to have any conflict(only battle of words). ex if china don't have tie with US in term of economy, another Korean war meant china will help NK, but now china will not help NK in the event of Korean conflict.

 

The chi-coms biggest trading partner isn't America but the EU.

But even the EU exports more to the PRC than the USA does.

Wonder why ? listen to Donald Trump, he knows why. We have an idiot and former community organizer in the White House and idiots in Congress who don't know the art of making a deal.

Then America's millennial generation has been the best thing to happen to Communist China since they are clueless what quality is so they have no problem buying garbage at Walmart.


List of the largest trading partners of China -> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_largest_trading_partners_of_China

China is about as dependent on trade with America today as a pantywaist liberal is dependent on Smith & Wesson.

 

well EU only become their #1 trading partner after US was their #1 trading partner for decades. the things is people gonna buy cheaper stuff to save a buck or two especially low tech stuff. we just can't compete in low-mid tech manufacture goods when country like india/Vietnam/malasia.china etc exist when labor cost is way low for them. increase efficiency by put most these type job with robotic and hire engineer/technician to do the control is one way to solve it.

 

Guess where Hillarys server was made ?

America no longer has an industrial base. America's GDP use to be based up the manufactured and sale of durable goods, not today, Burgers are counted and how many toilets have been cleaned.

Many of todays former American owned corporations are no more, they are multinational corporations today that have no loyalty to America. Microsoft, Google, Facebook, Apple, General Motors, Cisco Systems, McDonalds, Dell, and even Walmart and Boeing are multinational owned corporations today who don't give a (*)(*)(*)(*) about Americans and America only the bottom line.

You wonder why the globalist are scared of Trump becoming President ? The last thing these former American owned corporations want to see is manufacturing jobs returning back to American soil.

 

I have to disagree on that. in the age of internet globalism is here to stay, I don't care if Vietnam/india making t-shirt, shoes etc etc, because that's not what a 1st world country like us should concentrate on, instead we should concentrate on service, information tech, design R&D, high-end manufacture. Apple made its profit not by manufacture but by designing it, guess where the apple designer/engineer live at, US.
even china is start to move away from low-mid tech manufacture, start puting $$$ into R&D, purchasing company oversea etc. corporations job is not loyal to government(as long they don't jeopardize nation security), is loyalty to its investor/customer, and maximize profit for its investor, that's how capitalist work. a company loyal to its country 1st and its customer/invester 2nd is either state own or a bad company, and will bankrupt in a matter of time.

if we don't do business oversea we lose the advantage, and that slack will be fill by japan/Europe.

trumps brand of cloth are also made in china btw.

 

Well I don't concur. Maybe because I'm old schooled and was never indoctrinated in cultural-marxism and have always put America first. I'm an American not a citizen of the world.

If it's not broken, don't fix it. It worked for over two hundred years. And Ross Perot was right, that "sucking sound" became a reality.

 

well 200 yrs ago we don't have internet, now everything is connected, information is everywhere and ready available to be tapped. even in the 70s,90s we complain about japan/Skorea.
also 20-30yrs china/india/S.east asia don't have money to buy or manufacture skill to produce they do now. the world is changing and we have to adapt to it. don't play our weakness against their strong pint eg, labor cost ours vs them. our strong point has always been hi-tech, quality, service, information tech, biotech, aerospace etc etc. we should solidified these to make harder for everyone else to catch up, that means higher education, high skill and efficient workers, better and efficient R&D. we shouldn't compete low tech manufacture such as making massive amount t-shirts, those jobs left to 3rd world country. even if we concentrate on low tech stuff, it should be quality, brand name, something that people willing to pay for over mass produce version.

corporation was and will always loyal to their investor/customer 1st, that's how they survived, if they has any apprehension due to government policy on how/where they can operate, it will affect their performance, and allow other corp(europ/japan etc) to take advantage of the situation.

 

That may be true now, but around ten years ago (2005) the United States was China's largest overseas market and second largest source of foreign capital.

(source: http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/48587.pdf )

Plus, the "foreign" trade with Hong Kong shouldn't really be counted since Hong Kong is basically a part of China (it was returned to the People's Republic of China in 1997).

 

What does the internet has to do with anything ?

200 years ago there were no telephones or the internal combustion engine and a cow or a mule pulled a plow.

The internet is probably one of the worse advancements in history. As some of the former reserchers and engineers for DARPA who invented the internet have said, in hindsight the U.S. military should have kept the internet classified considering how it has dumbed down society. The internet was developed for the U.S. Air Force.

Basically you have a uninformed and or misinformed society because of the internet. "If it's on the internet, it must be true." "MoveOn.org calls for shuting down Donald Trump in Chicago, George Soros must know what he's calling for, he's a former Nazi collaborator so I'll be there." You have millennials today graduating with a college degree who can't do basic math without a calculator.

Do you read the newspaper on the internet ? Did you know when you read something on a computer monitor your reading speed is 25% less than if you were reading the printed form of the newspaper and your comprehension of what you read is as low as 50% less of what you read. How many books have you read so far this year ? Can you change a flat tire or do you have to call AAA ? Do you clean your own toilet or do you have a Mexican cleaning your toilet ? If AAA road service could be outsourced it would have already been done.

Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg and the late Steve Jobs have just not dumbed down the world but never had any loyalty to America or even to mankind.

Question ? What do you think you would be doing right now if there was no internet ? I bet you would be doing something more productive.

 

That's a myth. the United States manufactures about the same amount of durable goods as it has for decades.

The difference is that the number of people employed in manufacturing those goods has dropped dramatically. The transformation is the same as the one that occurred in agriculture where the U.S. still produces a staggering amount of foodstuffs despite only a handful of people being employed full time

 

if there is no internet we wont be has this conversation now or this forum. No, internet jump start a lot tech/industry, help student to do research, saving time. if there is no internet our knowledge is limited to local library, with internet, we can search with click of button, converse, send info in the speed of light. search google on how internet change the world. of course like everything their is downside as well, junk info, cyber issue etc.

 

The EU is also not a "country", but a group of over a dozen different nations, which is having it's own internal political and economic troubles. Yes, the US is indeed the single largest trading partner, but as a block the EU is larger. But would it remain so if the UK pulled out? I doubt it.

But I strongly agree with the main items you brought up. The issue here is not the US itself, but the buying habits of it's people. The fact is, most people shop by price. They care little about quality, durability, or where it comes from, they simply want the most affordable thing they can get.

When a contractor who uses a ladder needs a new one, they will likely go to a durable US made one, like Warner or Louisville Ladder. This is an item they will use every day for a decade or longer, so quality is a key consideration. But at $250+, they are costly. Meanwhile, a homeowner that uses one maybe twice a year will get one from COSCO for around $85. And yea, I am one of those. I have an 8' COSCO I use to climb on top of my RV twice a year and the start and end of the RV season to winterize it, and that is about it. I bought it used, and I can not think of a single time I have used it other then to climb on top of my RV.

Most of the items we buy from China are primarily because they are cheap. And the only people to blame here are the consumers. Not the governments, nor the politicians. And China is not about to convert from human to robotic construction, because one of the main reasons for their conversion to industry was to employ their staggering population. They have a tightly controlled economy, and need to keep their population working. A large out of work population would be a real danger to the government.

 

Hmmmm, yes and no, yes and no.

A "Durable Good" is something that is designed to last for 3 years or longer. Refrigerators, stoves, cars, televisions, phones, computers, and the like. And quantity is not quite the same as diversity.

The main area our manufacturing has actually increased in recent decades is transportation. Our vehicles are still in many ways considered the "gold standard" of the world, so their use has actually increased over the last several deccades. But in other areas, we have actually abandoned to others. TVs and video players are no longer built here, nor are most phones. Computers are still a major industry the US is involved in for durable goods, but with a large percentage of imported components.

As part of the computer industry for decades, I can think of very few items inside your computer that come from the US. Disk drives, video cards, keyboards, I would bet that while the computer you are sitting in front of now may have a "US Brand" on the outside, 90% of it is actually imported from overseas.

However, here you did give the most important fact quite clearly. The US is indeed the largest producer of food in the world, as well as the largest exporter of food in the world. We produce so much food that we are able to export over 80% of what we grow, and still have a surplus. This is what makes the US truely powerful on the world market. You can always wait to buy a new car or television, but you can only go a few days without food.

This map will make no sense without being explained...



No, the maker was not on acid. This shows each country with it's food use and production compared to population. To put it simply, it shows the surplus food produced compared to it's requirements. And as can be seen, the US dominates every other nation on the planet. And for all it's size and population, China is really no better off in this area then France is. They produce a lot of food, but their requirements mean there is very little surplus left over for export.

There was a statistic I read 20 years ago that showed that by itself the US could feed all of the Western Hemisphere all by itself, and still have a surplus large enough to feed a big chunk of Europe. And that was even at the land useage of the 1990's. The US still has enough capacity to almost double it's production again if required. It is that very agricultural surplus that allowed the US to surge to become the largest biofuel producer in the world (roughly 50% of the production worldwide is in the US), without reducing our food exports to any real degree.

Just 20 years ago, the largest biofuel producer in the world was Brazil, because their large sugar production and low oil reserves required that as a national fuel source. The US had both, so did not care until fairly recently. In 1990, Brazil produced 65% of the biofuel in the world, the US was around 10%.



Today, the US is at 50%, Brazil is second at 31%. And they are at their capacity and have been for years, we are still ramping up our production. It would not surprise me if the US was not at 65% in another decade.

 

It would be easier to list the durable goods that are still made in America than to list the durable goods that are no longer made in America like refrigerators, stoves, televisions, electronics, merchant ships, plumbing fixtures, steel, watches and clocks, etc.

Even the American auto industry what you're getting is a car that was assembled in America since so many of the parts that make up an assembled automobile are now foreign made. Soon that Ford F-150 will be assembled in Mexico.


Zippo lighters are a durable good and are still 100% made in the USA.



Five American Manufacturers Doing It Right: Made in the USA -> http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/gadgets/a5454/4249332/

 

the automate industry I was refer to US, not china. china just now try to increase their efficiency(whether it will succeed or not, don't know), otherwise all their job will be outsource to Vietnam alike for low-mid tech stuff. also china cheap labor starting to decline, and they know it. they are trying to transit to a more consumer base economy, increase efficient, increase R&D, or buy tech from other company, its basically setup to something like Skorean/japan, on a bigger scale. whether they can do it, well have to see.

 

You're right, if there was no internet today we wouldn't be having this conversation. What would you be doing instead ??? Maybe reading a book or being productive making something maybe even making some money ?

The internet has dumbed down society. We are turning out college grads who can't even comprehend or write in Cursive.

Helps students to research ??? Wouldn't they learn more if they got off their butts and went to a research library ?

If you read a book or printed newspaper at 400 WPM and comprehend 90% of what you have read and were to read the exact book or newspaper on the internet you would be reading at 300 WPM and your comprehension would have dropped from 90% to 60%.

 

IIRC Caterpillar is still the largest heavy equipment manufacturer in the world and most of their goods are manufactured in the U.S. In Oklahoma and Illinois I've heard.

 

True but Caterpillar today is a multinational owned corporation and Caterpillar has moved some of it's manufacturing off shore.

Below is from 2013.

Excerpt:

 

But their auto industry is still largely a joke. They are almost literally poor quality knock-offs of cars made by other companies, and are aimed almost entirely at their own domestic market. And in China they sell so well because their import laws pretty much eliminate any competition.

To give an idea, in 2014 they made over 23 million cars. And of those 23 million, only around 1 million were exported. Primarily to Afghanistan, North Korea, Syria, Philippines, Iraq, Iran, and other "developing nations". When less then 5% of a nations product is exported, you really have to ask why.

Let's just look at one of their most popular models, the Peri by Great Wall. It was rated as the Best Chinese Car in 2008:



Or is that a Fiat Panda?

Well, this model of Fiat came out in 2003, the Peri 5 years later in 2008. And of course Fiat sued, and won, in the EU. With a whopping fine of E50k for each Peri exported into the EU. But in Chinese courts, Great Wall won, even when it claimed that Fiat actually stole their design. Shortly afterwards, the Peri was dropped by it's company.

http://www.chinesecars.net/content/fiat-versus-great-wall

And BTW, this fine Chinese machine was shipped with the "entry level" Mitsubishi engine. It's only real advantage over the original was that was available for under US$7,000, as opposed to US$8,500 for the Panda (2008 prices at current exchange rates).

If one looks at the Chinese auto industry, it hardly impresses anybody. Their most successful cars are all made by joint-venture companies with Chinese companies primarily paired with US, Japanese, and South Korean companies. And these aim purely at the Chinese market, part of the agreements is that they not export these models.

So their exports are pretty much all knock-offs of cars from other countries. They take a car somebody makes, and pretty much rip it off, producing a poor copy.

Which is a Shuanghuan Noble, which is a Smart ForTwo?



And it gets even worse when the Chery QQ is compared to the Daewoo Matiz.



The QQ was so blatent that roughly 85% of it was bolt for bolt compatible with the Matiz. And there has been much speculation when their own crash test performance was independently reviewed that they may have actually simply replaced the body of a Matiz with that of the QQ for the initial testing.

Efficiency is not an issue when you have more workers then needed, and your market is almost purely internal. You can be as inefficient as you want. And the money sure is not going into any kind of "R&D", since they still operate mostly with cast-off import designs, foreign made major components (like engines and transmissions), and only sell to their own people. Absolutely no need to be competitive at all.

Yea, we have heard of the "emerging Chinese auto powerhouse" for almost a decade yet, but have yet to see it.

The only vehicle exports they have that have had any kind of an impact is actually in their motorcycles. I actually knew somebody that had a Lifan Royal 250, pretty much a baby Harley knock-off. He said it was a decent bike, especially since it sold new for under US$3,000 (he bought it from a hardware store). But he was already hearing of QA issues for replacement parts, and greatly reduced lifespans when compared to bikes from Japan and the US.



But good luck finding what the used price of these things are. I have looked, and have not found any for sale used. But there is a decent parts market. Drive it till it dies and a key part is not available, then part out the rest to others that need parts that still work on yours. I just talked to a buddy, who told me that finding a replacement stator or a modification for an alternator for a 1984 Gold Wing is easier to find then a voltage regulator or oil pump for a Lifan.

We just had an interesting 15 minute conversation we just finished, he has had several Lifan's in his shop over the past few years. His own words was they were a decent starter bike, since you expect to drop one your first year of riding. But when it dies, just junk it then get a real bike. There is a reason one of their largest US distributors was PepBoys.

 

Just saying that this free trade globalization thing may not be working so well when there exist extraneous costs like defense considerations. Ok, that Chinese-made product may be cheaper but how much more are you going to have to pay in taxes so that the Chinese military build-up can be countered?

I'm just saying, the U.S. and NATO countries do not really know what they are doing. The left hand does not realize what the right hand is doing. On the one hand they are trying to promote trade with China, on the other hand they feel threatened by the increasing military strength of China which has been enabled by all this trade.

Choose one or the other. Is China a big potential threat that needs to be countered? Then stop trading with them, China benefits from this trade far more than the U.S. Or are they not such a big threat that needs to be worried about? Then stop wasting billions of taxpayer dollars on all this defense spending specifically aimed at trying to counter them. It just does not make logical sense, it is a poor allocation of economic resources.

 

What makes you think our foreign policy establishment actually knows one way or the other??

 

What does one have to do with the other?

Sorry, there is absolutely no connection between the two. By this line of reasoning, we should then stop selling and buying things from any nation we might potentially have a conflict of interests with.

Well, that ends any trade with at least 1/3 of the countries on the planet.

 

I consider our economy ties with china is a card to play when situation become heightened. the more china and US rely on each other in term of economy the more both side will consider pro/cons before start a conflict, both side can back off a bit before a conflict. china has a lot more to lose now compare to time of Korean war.

 

Through all this trade, the U.S. market has basically been paying for the Chinese military, if you want to see it that way.
Especially 10 years ago when Chinese exports were almost entirely dependent on the U.S. market.

Let's look at this from an economic standpoint; does the U.S. policy on China make logical sense??
Did American policymakers take into account the additional military spending that would be required when they signed into place those Free Trade deals with China?