As many may know I've long advocated peace between Israel and the Palestinians based upon UN Security Council Resolution 242. Key to that that resolution is the following provision: Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgement of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force; Both the Israelis and Palestinians must be willing to accept and embrace this provision and in recent peace negotiations the Palestinian Authority expressed a willingness to do so but the Palestinian Authority doesn't represent all of the Palestinians. Hamas, that represents the Palestinian extremists, has always been problematic so logically it's Hamas that must endorse peace based upon UN Security Council Resolution 242. If Hamas is not brought onboard to accept and embrace the above provision of UNSC 242 we could not expect a lasting peace to be established. In that there is hope based upon statements made by Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal. http://www.cbsnews.com/news/hamas-leader-khaled-meshaal-on-israel-hamas-conflict/ Additionally we have the following statements from Hamas leadership. http://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-would-accept-peace-with-israel-west-bank-leader-says/ So what is Hamas basically stating? First and foremost is that Israel must also accept the above provision of UNSC 242 by recognizing the Rights of the Palestinians to there national identity within their internationally recognized borders and that Israel must also commit to another primary provision of UNSC 242 that states: "Withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent (1967) conflict;" Israel has claimed for almost 50 years that it's 1967 invasion and occupation of the Palestinian territories were not based upon an attempt to seize land but instead were an "act of self-defense" against a threat of invasion by Egypt, Jordan, and Syria. While we can argue the veracity of that claim let's simply accept it at face value. National defense is a valid argument and it's a concern for both Israel and Palestine that the Palestinian Authority has also addressed. The Palestinian Authority has proposed that an international military force, preferably NATO, occupy a buffer zone between Israel and Palestine predominately. Any attack by either nation against the other would effectively be an act of war against the NATO forces that would be required to respond. We know that UN peacekeeping forces are basically worthless, as demonstrated many times, but NATO forces are not "peacekeepers" but instead a highly armed and well supported military force that can effectively respond to any act of aggression. The national security of both Israel and Palestine would be secured until such a time as those forces are no longer necessary. Hamas, in the statement by Khaled Meshaal addressed another issue. The "Right of Return" for Palestinian refugees from the 1948-49 Israeli War of Independence. Israel has long rejected this proposition but with the passage of time it's changed. Today Israel could allow the Right of Return for any person that can document they were a resident of what became Israel and in 1948-49 they fled as a refugee. This doesn't have to be extended to their decedents that were born in Palestine (or other countries) because they're natural born citizens of where they were born based upon Jus Soli. This effectively reduces the number of Arabs that could claim a right of return to a relatively small number because most of those that fled in 1948-49 are dead and even an infant born in 1948 would be in their late 60's and unlikely to even want to return to Israel. The passage of time has rendered this condition fundamentally moot because most are dead, few can actually document their origin in Israel, and even fewer would even attempt it. The last condition, established by Hamas leader Sheikh Hassan Yousef, is that the peace agreement be based upon a referendum vote of the Palestinian people. I find this to be an important requirement not just from the position of Hamas but also of vital importance to Israel as well. For peace to exist between Palestine and Israel there must be a commitment to that peace by the people and only a vote will establish if that commitment actually exists. With all of this said what should Israel do? First and foremost Israel has to agree to the "Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgement of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force." This is a mutual agreement that both must accept and embrace for peace to exist. Next Israel, in embracing the above, must agree to withdraw from the Palestinian territory it occupied in 1967, including the West Bank and E Jerusalem, that Israel has long claimed was never a purpose for the 1967 invasion in the first place. Finally Israel should also seek to ensure that this peace will be secured by the presence of an international military force, such as NATO, in a buffer zone as previously proposed by the Palestinian Authority. This provides national security for both Israel and Palestine. Israel needs to make these all of these provisions conditional upon the acceptance of the Palestinian people established by popular vote. If the Palestinian people vote for a peace based upon these provisions then Hamas has already indicated that all of it's conditions for the recognition and a permanent peace with Israel have been fulfilled. The key to all of this is that it really needs to be an Israeli proposal for peace that is put before the Palestinian people for them to accept or reject. If the Palestinians accept then Israel withdraws from their country and both countries have their future national security and right to live in peace secured.
It is up to Israel to make the first significant move! Just read in Haaretz gthat they are at least starting to become aware of their atrocious behavior: For Israel to admit that is huge!! I'm not a subscriber and am blocked from further reading. http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.716568
I don't believe I'd call it a "first significant move" by Israel but instead a reciprocation of the changed position of Hamas that now, with only a couple of minor provisions, has expressed it's willingness to accept a two-state solution based upon UNSC 242. For decades Hamas called for the end of the State of Israel but it's now willing to accept Israel as an independent sovereign nation within it's internationally recognized territorial borders and the rights of the Israelis to live in peace but Israel must also reciprocate by also accepting and acknowledging the right of the Palestinians to live in peace within their internationally recognized borders. Hamas has actually made the first significant move that would allow peace. This was huge when it comes to establishing peace between Palestine and Israel. It would, of course, be a significant move for Israel to acknowledge the rights of the Palestinians to their nation and their right to live in peace within their internationally recognized borders but it wouldn't be a "first move" by Israel but instead a reciprocation of what Hamas has already offered.
if you had your facts straight, you would know that Israel urged Jordan NOT to attack, but Jordan declared the "die has been cast", and started shelling Jerusalem. Israel did not start the West Bank conflict, Jordan did. And they lost the West Bank due to their insistance on war.
if Jordan had chosen to NOT attack Israel in 1967, the West Bank would have never have been conquered by Israel.
The fact is this is complete and utter nonsense because I've always expressed "respect for and acknowledgement of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State" and "their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force." Israel has existed since I was born in 1949 and I have never made any exception for Israel in my acknowledgement of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of the Israeli people in the nation of Israel. The problem with Israel is that Israel hasn't limited it's existence to it's own territory since 1967 nor has Israel shown any "respect for and acknowledgement of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of" the Palestinians and "their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force." I've also openly condemned any and every act of terrorism by any and all groups. That applied to the Contras in Nicaragua, the Kurdish terrorists, to Al Qaeda, and to terrorist acts by Hamas. I've also condemned all "war crimes" and "crimes against humanity" by any country including the United States where the US engaged in acts of torture that are a "crime against humanity" under international laws. .
As an Israeli I prefer the 'status quo'... (existing state of things) where armed Israelis would have the right to defend themselves and shoot the assailant dead if he attacks with whatever arms he carries, be it stones, knifes, guns, steel rods, hatchets etc.,... These people should not have a smidgen of hope for 'self determination' for their intention to play a fast one on the world has not subsided... I want the world to know that this is the Land of the Jews and not the Arabs. 77% of the Mandate was yanked away by the British to create Jordan where 76% of its population is made of Arabs of Palestine. I wish them well in Jordan when they pick up and move there... As a reminder there is already a Peace Treaty between Jordan and Israel. There is no need to create another so called Palestine State if one already exist in Jordan!!!
Sorry but those who declared war on Israel don't get to reset the clock back to 1948 and make demands when they've failed in their declared goal - to destroy Israel and take the entire Mandate area for themselves. They want peace, make peace - then negotiate for the land they could have had to begin with had they not declared war as the decades long process of proving their words begins. He is pretty much stating he will continue his hateful war for eternity. Putting the final nails in the poor Palestinians coffin with him at the helm of his ship of hate.
Anyone has the right (including you) provided you behave as a guest and not an insurgent that deny the host country the right to govern itself, undermining its right to be a "Jewish State", and join fifth columnists... The guests that has a devilish intention of fomenting trouble should <ipso facto> (by the very fact; in the very nature of the deed) be banned from the host country without any rights of return... those that have blood on their hands should be judged, executed or incarcerated for life.
This thread is for those that want peace between the Palestinians and the Israelis and not for those that advocate a never-ending conflict. Support for Israel in the United States will completely disappear of Israel refuses to accept a fair and equitable peace settlement with the Palestinians and if that support is lost then Israel is doomed.
LOL, in that case you can see HBendor and Drewbedson off. They want Hamas and the PA to either leave Palestine for Jordan or to fully surrender all their terms and conditions and accept whatever Israel deigns to offer for peace. In the meantime, the current situation is entirely acceptable to these people. Its part of the inherent evil that they operate under, a tribal absolutism no better in the end than the Arab totalitarianists, the Caliphate lovers or the Russian / Chinese nationalists.
Don't you dare pick on Shiva, Shiva is one of the most decent people on this forum and always has been. No nation states have any right to exist. And Israel is free is recognise itself in whatever way it pleases in accordance with international law - no one else is required to recognise it as Jewish state. No one has here ever given a real reason why anyone can
Don't you dare pick on Shiva, Shiva is one of the most decent people on this forum and always has been. No nation states have any right to exist. And Israel is free is recognise itself in whatever way it pleases in accordance with international law - no one else is required to recognise it as Jewish state. No one has here ever given a real reason why anyone should recognise Israel as a Jewish state other than Israel itself.
Stop the piffle pattle. Don't insult me. If you recognize Israel has the right to be a Jewish state but in the pre 1967 borders only, simply state so. The piffle paffle means nothing to me. Not playing. You do not and have never come on this forum and stated you believe Israel has a right to exist as a Jewish state even within the pre 1967 borders. You've made a consistent effort in each and every one of your posts to question Zionism, the right of Jews to call themselves Israelis and your support of Muslim extremists whose charters are to take back all of Israel-so stop mincing words. Not in the mood. Been there done that. You blew any good will you had posts ago pretending to be a moderate who respects the rights of Palestinians and Jews each to their own state. You don't, you never have., and you piffle and paffle your way to avoid stating it.
Lol. Really? I can't disagree with him? Its picking on him. I am challenging him. Don't play victim and don't act like he's a victim. Save the melodrama. Both of you do not agree that Israel shoyld be a Jewish state, you never did, never will, and because of that both of you are engaging in piffle paffle discussing peace. Peace only comes about between disputing parties willing to recognize each other. Israel has time and time again withdrawn to 1867 borders from Gaza and Lebanon only to be attacked moments later. Israel tried to engage in a peaceful step by step process to create a Palestinian state, Arafat stated in South Africa, it was all a joke, he was just stalling, no Palestinian would ever agree to anything but a Sharia law Muslim state in Israel, the West Bank and Jordan. So save me the drama. You are not interested in peace. You are interested in engaging in propaganda that blames Israel for defending itself against terrorism. Yah I know the shtick. You hide behind the Jewish settlements as the reason for all terrorism on Israel. Horse bleep. This retreading of this pap that there's no peace because Israel won't let Palestinians back in Israel to take it over which is what your idea of peace and justice is, is a crock of dung. Can I be clearer. Here let me state it even clearer: 1-you do not think Israel should exist as a Jewish state in pre 1967 or post 1967 borders 2-you think terrorism is an acceptable political expression. Go on deny 1 and 2, please. Do I look like I am gonna play spin the Tehran pap today boys?
Ethnic cleansing, property theft and destruction, perpetual occupation, rule of a civilian population by military law in which the people have no say? Yes. These are crimes. They can not be allowed to continue. And, yes these are conditions that no human population peacefully accepts.
Hardly. Settlement building would explode and all actions against enemies would be far more violent and unrestrained. It's always been a wet dream of the left that Israel would fail and come to see their side if they had less funding however the reverse is true as aid is one of the few things that allows the US to restrain Israel. Israel has enough iron to defeat any and all comers in the region so the loss of one percent of it's overall economy will not destroy her rather it would free her to do whatever they felt like doing. We Asked a Military Expert What Would Happen if the US Stopped Giving Money to Israel It's a bad move in any reality. If one is going to untie this know the place to start is to push the Palestinians to rescind their declaration of war, strike the violent destruction of Israel from their official positions and make peace so that Israel then has no excuse to occupy anything and then work to setting the former mandate area up as per UNGA 181 with two viable nations.
the settlements are the main reason why most of the West Bank today is not under Palestinian control. they are a HUGE obstacle to peace. they were built to be an obstacle to peace.
Thank you for letting me a bit on your own feelings. The difference is I live here, I breathe here, I work here, I enjoy serenity in short I aim to live and repopulate my country without any disturbance, animosity or upheaval. I want peace in my country Israel!!! The encroaching Muslim/Arabs on the Land of the Jews is abhorrent to me and many who consider that their patrimony! Your brand of Peace is totally <unacceptable> for it serves to erode, decimate and give those that have no leg to stand on, a soap box to use as a dais to once again play a fast one on the naive world.. >>>MOD EDIT Off Topic Removed<<< What is my wish then you ask? I want them to pick and leave and take their hands off something that is not theirs! This is originally the Land of Israel and not the Arab's... The Arabs received 'Self Determination' in 21 countries this past century... Leave Israel alone!
I totally disagree... what you call 'West Bank' is Judea and Shomron liberated from 19 years of Jordanian <OCCUPATION> and not from the so called Palestinians!
