100 years ago... The Battle of Jutland

Discussion in 'Warfare / Military' started by US Conservative, May 12, 2016.

  1. US Conservative

    US Conservative Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The Battle of Jutland Animation

    One of the great WW1 Naval battles...thousands died, but it did contribute to advances in surface warfare.
    [video=youtube;U_UryFjKUsM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_UryFjKUsM[/video]
     
  2. MVictorP

    MVictorP Well-Known Member

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    The first part of the document - the one about the actual battle, was excellent.

    The second part, where they painfully and selectively went throught the rest of the Atlantic war to explain how the Brits tactically won at Jutland was too much.

    Let's be honest here: the German won Skaggerak. Yes, of course, the Brits found themselves on the winning side two years later (not because of their naval savy but rather because America entered the war), but that doesn't mean they won Skaggerak, which was a clear tactical German victory. It was communism that tied the HSF to the docks - not the fear of British steel.

    WASPs also randomly claim that the Battle of the River Plate was, too, a Brit victory. :roflol:
     
  3. Oxymoron

    Oxymoron Well-Known Member

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    Idiot Germans took out fleet once, and never again. (*)(*)(*)(*)(*) idiots.
     
  4. US Conservative

    US Conservative Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It was particularly bloody-those that didn't die from drowning (those without vests would have drowned once hypothermia set in) died in magazine explosions.

    It led to the "turnip winter" of 1916 where many germans nearly starved.
     
  5. SFJEFF

    SFJEFF New Member

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    Nothing random about calling the destruction of Graf Spee a British victory.

    What was the Graf Spee's mission?- sink and disrupt British shipping.

    The Battle of the River Plate ended that mission, with the German loss of one the only two pocket battleships that they had- a loss the badly outnumbered German navy couldn't afford.

    The British suffered three damaged cruisers- all of which were back in service within a year.

    Yeah- that was a victory.
     
  6. Strasser

    Strasser Banned

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    The idiot in charge was Wilhelm II, who started up a naval arms race against Britain, and lost it. Then he compounded the stupidity by deliberately starting a land war and invading a couple of neutrals and drawing Britain into a war they would have preferred to avoid.
     
  7. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That's not how I heard it happened.

    Serbia pointed out that it couldn't afford a whole suit, but offered to pay for the cleaning of Austria's trousers. Russia and Serbia looked at Austria. Austria asked Serbia who it's looking at. Russia suggested that Austria should leave its little brother alone. Austria inquired as to whose army will assist Russia in compelling it to do so. Germany appealed to Britain that France has been looking at it, and that this is sufficiently out of order that Britain should not intervene. Britain replied that France can look at who it wants to, that Britain is looking at Germany too, and what is Germany going to do about it?

    Germany told Russia to stop looking at Austria, or Germany will render Russia incapable of such action. Britain and France asked Germany whether it's looking at Belgium.

    Turkey and Germany went off into a corner and whispered. When they came back, Turkey made a show of not looking at anyone. Germany rolled up its sleeves, looked at France, and punched Belgium.

    France and Britain punched Germany. Austria punched Russia. Germany punched Britain and France with one hand and Russia with the other. Russia threw a punch at Germany, but misses and nearly falls over.

    The rest is history.
     
  8. US Conservative

    US Conservative Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The Germans couldn't imagine how or why the Brits would get involved.

    Then the lead rocks flew.
     
  9. MVictorP

    MVictorP Well-Known Member

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    Pfff!

    The "victory" you claim for the Commonwealth certainly didn't came from their guns - it came from propaganda and misinformation, two full days after the battle. No British ship was present when Graf Spee was scuttled.

    With that rationale, the Brits didn't lose a single battle in WWII, since in the end they won the war. :alcoholic:

    In the battle itself, Graf Spee squashed the three-cruiser opposition with relative ease. Certainly no victory for the Brits.
     
  10. Baff

    Baff Well-Known Member

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    No British ship had to be.
    Awesome victory.
     
  11. Strasser

    Strasser Banned

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    It started as soon as Wilhelm's Daddy dies in 1894 and left his incompetent son an empire to screw with. Wilhelm II immediately sacked Bismarck, one of the great diplomats of history, and started rattling sabers at everybody around him for the next 18 years. History followed from there, with Wilhelm threatening his neighbors, sending gunboats around to annoy both the Brits and the French, started an arms race, and of course deliberately started a war. He even had to fake an 'attack' by France in order to justify attacking them in the West, that's how far over everybody else bent over to avoid a war with the idiot Emperor. In any case, nobody should have really expected the last major feudal powers in Europe to go away peacefully, especially a Hapsburg or a Tsar. Nobody else around him had anything to gain from a war, only Wilhelm did. Bismarck split them all up, and kept them apart, Wilhelm drove traditional enemies together in defensive alliances and unified them against him, and for no good reason other than his ego.
     
  12. MVictorP

    MVictorP Well-Known Member

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    I'd say a strategical victory for the secret services, okay...

    ... but certainly no military victory at the battle itself, wich was two days earlier. In that actual battle, the Commonwealth forces lost without a doubt. The episode at Montevideo was separated from the battle by 2 days and yet it is conveniently treated as if it was the same event.

    I always wonder at that WASP habit of reaching as far in the aftermath as they can to transform a clear defeat into a victory of some sort. :cheerleader:
     
  13. Baff

    Baff Well-Known Member

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    Victory all the way at all points of the battle.
    Their ship was on the run the whole time. They believed they were beat. They were right.

    It should be noted that the entire French fleet sank itself rather than fight us too.
    Scuttling is a way to prevent your ship falling into enemy hands. Of limiting your loss.
     
  14. MVictorP

    MVictorP Well-Known Member

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    First: Graf Spee was a raider. It is a raider's role to avoid combat. Second, the Commonwealth fleet had the speed advantage, even after the battle. It was them who desisted from the battle. In the actual battle of the River Plate, the Commonwealth force has been clearly beaten. What happened two days later was in no way part of the battle, nor was it a naval victory (but a secret one).

    To the contrary, the Graf Spee have been victorious but they never knew it. It was a propaganda victory, as the Graf Spee could simply have sailed out of Montevideo without encountering anything other than the battered cruiser and a half that they already beaten.

    Who is "we"?

    The French scuttling at Toulon was to prevent the fleet to be taken by the Nazi regime. This noble act saved the allies a lot of problems, as the French Fleet was a continual worry to Mediteranean operations, like it was shown at Mers-el-kebir. There were some mean ships at Toulon, enough to flip the balance on the Axis way in the Mediteranean.
     
  15. RiaRaeb

    RiaRaeb Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    No idea where you got your history from. After Exeter was forced to withdrawl, the Graff Spee made smoke and turned away from Ajax and Achilles who attempted to close on her. The Graf Spe turned again but when Ajax fired her torpedoes Graf Spee made smoke and turned away again, After another hit on Ajax the British made smoke and shadowed her intending to attack at night. Graf Spee made for the neutral port. Graf Spee was hit in the fuel processing area leaving her with only enough fuel to head for a neutral port. (by Exeter early on in the battle) at that point she was unable to return home and was effectively finished)

    The Cumberland joined the Ajax and Achilles whilst the Graf Spee was in port, so she would of had to fight her way past three cruisers and then go where?

    The Commonwealth force was not clearly beaten at all, they were out gunned but still forced the Graf Spee to withdrawal because of damage to her fueling system.
     
  16. MVictorP

    MVictorP Well-Known Member

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    There. You just answered your own point. The Commonwealth force had the speed advantage: it was their decision to either enter or exit combat. Shodowing doesn't mean that the shadowed force flees - It means that it is slower.

    The Cumberland arrived 22 hours after Graf Spee entered Montevideo. And even with tin-claded Cumberland in, the two Leanders were barely combat-able, since one of them lost half its armement and both were short on shells, more liabilities than assets. If Graf Spee got out of Montevideo in anger, there's little the Commonwealth fleet could have done.

    In any case, the battle was over, and not to the Commonwealth's advantage. IMO, the propaganda efforts that makes Grap Spee scuttle itself was a different battle, fought on a totally un-related front. The few Brit ships that were there were of little incidence, if at all. The only ones that had any incidence at all were the ones that couldn't be there.

    The Commonwealth forces were beaten and beaten well, to irrelevance.
     
  17. RiaRaeb

    RiaRaeb Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    .

    Graf Spee had only 16 hours of fuel left, she had no choice but to head for a port, the British rightly chose to shadow her and await night and attack her. The damage the Exeter made on her was what forced her to head for a port, the British sailors at the time could not understand why she did not remain to finish the job, why he broke off action and headed for a port.

    There is plenty the commonwealth fleet could of done, especally as you have pointed out they had the speed advantage. Where would the Graf Spee had gone? She could not return home.

    The battle was over because the Graf Spee had headed for a port forced there by the British Cruisers, what other reason has she for heading for port?


    If they were well beaten why did the Graf Spee head to a port?
     
  18. SFJEFF

    SFJEFF New Member

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    LOL- thats like calling the Battle of the Bismark a huge success!

    A pocket battleship like the Graf Spee, with its 6 11'' and 8 5.9" guns should have sunk all three cruisers. The Graf Spee threw more shell weight than all three cruisers combined, and with greater range.

    Exeter- with 6- 8" guns, Achilles and Ajax with 8- 6" guns.

    What was the end result of the battle?

    The Graf Spee was too damaged to escape or return to Germany, and eventually scuttled itself.

    The threat of the German raider was eliminated, and the only German capital ship on the high seas was no more.

    Both a tactical and strategic victory.
     
  19. MVictorP

    MVictorP Well-Known Member

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    The Graf Spee had diesel engines; finding oil was easy for her, from either a tender or even a victim. The Graf Spee was out of docks for months: How do you think it was re-fueled?

    The RN would have more likely lost another ship.

    To re-fuel and repair some damage, that was denied. Most likely, the Brit force would have shadowed the GS until they were joined by a bigger force. I don't even think that the GS would have to even battle its way out of Montevideo. But Langsdorf didn't knew that.
     
  20. MVictorP

    MVictorP Well-Known Member

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    Good comparison: It's like saying the Battle of Denmark straits was a British victory since the Bismarck was sunk days later.

    Of the actual battle? One UK cruiser out of combat, one heavily damaged, one lightly damaged; On the German side: one raider lightly damaged.

    That's not the reason why it was scuttled.

    Yep - but that wasn't as a result of the battle of the River Plate. It was a result of the Montevideo propaganda operation.

    Do something: go to Wikipedia and check the Battle of the River Plate in other languages: then check who they give as a victor: You'll see:
    - Symbolical British victory
    - Epirric British Victory
    - German tactical victory; British strategical victory, etc

    The english page is the only one with a judgement like the one you did. Hence my WASP POV argument.

    PS: They really did it: On the Wiki page, the Battle of Denmark Strait is marked as a Brit operational victory. By blowing off Mighty Hood and mugging the Prince of Wales, the Germans, from the tip of the lips, were rewarded with a mere "tactical victory".

    :roflol:
     
  21. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Good video but what was not mentioned, that the British fleet was able to Cross the "T" twice during the Battle of Jutland and the German fleet was never able to get into position of crossing the T.

    How the crossing of the "T" works. -> http://imgur.com/gallery/Ftqnuk0


     
  22. Baff

    Baff Well-Known Member

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    The French scuttling was to avoid surrendering to the RN. The NAZI's had no mediteranean fleet. No way to stop them.
    The RN had given ultimatum and assembled it's own fleet accordingly.

    Only half the French were anti Nazi. Allies skirmished with them in Algeria and Syria also.
     
  23. MVictorP

    MVictorP Well-Known Member

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    Wrong. Inform yourself. What you talk about is Mers El Kebir, and there was no scuttling at Mers-el-Kebir.
     
  24. Baff

    Baff Well-Known Member

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    South coast of France somewhere, WW2, I'd Google it but I figured you'd probably know of the one I meant.
     
  25. RiaRaeb

    RiaRaeb Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Langsdorf turned away from the battle when he should of won, either his ship was damaged or he was just a lousy captain, either way it was not the victory it should of been.

    Or I suppose he could of been a coward and that's why he shot himself.

    Or maybe he wanted to follow the greatest tradition of the old Imperial German Navy and sink his own ship.
     

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