The Myth of the NHS Collapsing due to Brexit.

Discussion in 'Western Europe' started by Fugazi, May 28, 2016.

  1. Fugazi

    Fugazi New Member Past Donor

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    One of the major fear-mongering things put out by the remain campaign is that leaving the EU would decimate the NHS .. this is a pile of bovine crap.

    The health service in the UK has been employing foreign workers since before the NHS was even created. Since the 1930s, successive governments have resolved staffing crises through recruiting workers from overseas.

    The UK has a long history of recruiting for the health services from many countries, what the EU freedom of movement did was to curtail that recruitment in favour of EU members meaning that successive governments have had to impose greater restrictions on non-EU recruitment in order to meet (and failing) their self-imposed immigration levels, which is a form of discrimination, if we were to opt out of the EU the practice of recruiting from our own Commonwealth could be returned to the same levels it was prior to the EU stripping our EU immigration restrictions.

    As it stands 3.6% of NHS staff are from within the EU while 4% are from Commonwealth countries and 2.6% from other countries. There is absolutely no reason to even consider the NHS failing if we left the EU, the remain camp seem to think that leaving the EU will mean stopping all recruitment from other countries which is a pile of crap.
     
  2. cerberus

    cerberus Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    This is why Project Fear will undoubtedly prevail, because it's so easy for Remain to come out with whatever outlandish frighteners they can dream up without having to actually prove them, but conversely it's impossible for Leave to disprove them; therefore the negativity is always uppermost in the public mindset. I fear that the traitors will get their way.
     
  3. Fugazi

    Fugazi New Member Past Donor

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    I would not go so far as to call them traitors, but I do agree with you on the fear factor being the deciding thing.
     
  4. cerberus

    cerberus Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    They're ready and very willing to surrender our sovereignty, and that makes them traitors in my book. And to make matters worse they're doing so for various self-interests, such as using the EU as a 'nice little earner' bolt-hole when they finish domestic politics.
     
  5. Fugazi

    Fugazi New Member Past Donor

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    I would still say that by far the majority are backing remain because they feel it is in the best interests (wrongly) of the country.
     
  6. diamond lil

    diamond lil Well-Known Member

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    We aren't wrong.

    The claims made by the Vote Leave are utter tosh.

    Not surprising considering many of the politicians behind it support the current government's reforms, which are aimed at contracting out and privatising the NHS as much as possible.

    Look at this:

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ed-charging-for-nhs-and-cutting-a6986631.html
     
  7. penaltyref

    penaltyref New Member

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    I admire your capacity to be taken in by the 'Independent' when it hardly is. We could trawl up quotes by both sides that contradict what they are saying now and Cameron is the worst of the lot because he happens to be our leader. What's wrong with using your own logic? If we stop pouring money into Europe then it has to go somewhere else and after Brexit the argument will start on where it should be spent...DOMESTICALLY....that's the main point you are missing. And if you think this country would accept ANY cutailment of money being spent on the NHS then you haven't been paying attention for the past 50 years (depending on your age).
     
  8. Fugazi

    Fugazi New Member Past Donor

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    As far as the NHS collapsing as a result of leaving, yes you are wrong . .as to whether the NHS is being privatised, that is for another thread.
     
  9. lunecat

    lunecat Active Member

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    The NHS has to deliver services to the public. The larger the population grows the greater the pressure on the NHS.

    Mass immigration puts higher pressure on the NHS that leads to longer waiting times.

    Vote Leave-EU on the 23rd June.
     
  10. cerberus

    cerberus Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You'd think it would go without saying. The point is that over 2 million NI numbers have been issued in as many years: in fact I'd bet that the 18 Albanians who were rescued from the Channel a few days ago have already got theirs.
     
  11. diamond lil

    diamond lil Well-Known Member

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    More tosh. This country has been accepting a curtailment of money spent on the NHS for many years.

    I do use my own logic - and what's more, I back it up with facts. I don't just spout made up nonsense.

    If you have found something wrong with that the report from Independent, then say what it is.
     
  12. penaltyref

    penaltyref New Member

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    NHS net expenditure (resource plus capital, minus depreciation) has increased from £64.173 billion in 2003/04 to £113.300bn in 2014/15. Planned expenditure for 2015/16 is £116.574bn.
    Health expenditure (medical services, health research, central and other health services) per capita in England has risen from £1,841 in 2009/10 to £1,994 in 2013/14.
     
  13. diamond lil

    diamond lil Well-Known Member

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    It's not enough money.

    The rises are barely above inflation, but that doesn't take into account there was nowhere near enough in the first place. or the fact we have an ageing population putting increasing demands on the NHS.

    Cuts to social services mean elderly patients cannot be discharged to be cared for at home.

    It's no good quoting figures unless you know what's behind them.

    Lunecat's solution is for everyone to have private health insurance.

    We know how wonderfully well that has worked out for the USA.
     
  14. penaltyref

    penaltyref New Member

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    Now you are moving the goalposts. But hey we can at least agree that more money needs to be spent on the NHS and that money is going to Brussels.
     
  15. diamond lil

    diamond lil Well-Known Member

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    I'm not moving the goalposts. I'm establishing them.

    If you're going to make an argument, then you should back it up with solid facts, otherwise I'm not interested.
     
  16. penaltyref

    penaltyref New Member

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    What do you think post 13 was then? My imagination? If you are going to keep putting the goalpost in the wrong holes then I'm not interested.
     
  17. diamond lil

    diamond lil Well-Known Member

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    Post 13 was you finding numbers without adding any background to them.
     
  18. cerberus

    cerberus Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    On the Scottish debate on BBC tv last night one of the participants, a young woman, mentioned that one of the advantages of Remaining is because the EU has reduced mobile phone roving charges. FFS no wonder politicians wanted the voting age lowered!
     
  19. Fugazi

    Fugazi New Member Past Donor

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    no idea what calculator you are using, but an increase from £64.173 billion in 2003/04 to £113.300bn in 2014/15 is 43%, and 2.8% for 2014/15 to 205/16, inflation stands at about 0.3%. I make that a 2.5% increase above inflation
     
  20. diamond lil

    diamond lil Well-Known Member

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    http://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/nhs-in-a-nutshell/nhs-budget

    This means that between 2009/10 and 2020/21, spending on the NHS in England will rise by nearly £35 billion in cash terms – an increase of 35 per cent. But much of this increase will be swallowed up by rising prices. In fact, around £24 billion will be absorbed by inflation, leaving a real increase of just £11 billion (a 10 per cent rise over eleven years; equivalent to an average annual increase of just 0.9 per cent).

    and:
    http://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/politic...on-of-gdp-spent-on-nhs-falls/20006371.article

    Government spending on the NHS is continuing to fall as a percentage of GDP, an analysis of official figures has revealed.

    An analysis of figures from the Office of Budget Responsibility by the Nuffield Trust think-tank reveals that spending is set to go down from 6.5% of GDP in 2012-13 to 6.2% in 2015-16.


    and:

    http://www.nhscampaign.org/NHS-reforms/nhs-funding.html

    The UK’s GDP is forecast to grow in real terms by 15.2% between 2014/2015 and 2020/21, however spending on the NHS is set to grow by just 0.9% per year. As a result spending on the NHS as a proportion of GDP will fall to just 6.6% compared to 7.3% in 2014/2015. The Kings Fund notes that if spending on the NHS grew in line with the economy, by 2020/21 the NHS would be spending £16 billion more than planned. The UK has fallen significantly behind many other European countries in terms of health funding; the UK is now 13th out of the original 15 EU members in terms of investment.



    So, as you can see the actual figures don't stand up to scrutiny. Spending on the NHS as a proportion of GDP is falling steadily.
     
  21. Fugazi

    Fugazi New Member Past Donor

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    That isn't what you stated in the comment I replied to, you said nothing about NHS funding as a percentage of GDP
     
  22. cerberus

    cerberus Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    After watching one of the most useless PMs in recent history hysterically promoting Remain in the Marr programme yesterday, and having never seen him so animatedly tenacious in all the years he was in office, I'm now fully convinced that the so-called big beasts are getting desperate to the point of lying to us through their teeth, and the question which needs to be answered is 'Why is that?' There's an Establishment agenda here, I just know it!
     
  23. penaltyref

    penaltyref New Member

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    He moves the goalposts mate. There's a lot of it about at the moment.
     
  24. diamond lil

    diamond lil Well-Known Member

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    So? I've added background to your figures ( which were wrong)
     
  25. Fugazi

    Fugazi New Member Past Donor

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    no you moved the goalposts from your original assertion.

    - - - Updated - - -


    I know.
     

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