Zika Virus Epidemic Has Doubled Abortion Requests, Study Finds

Discussion in 'Abortion' started by Herkdriver, Jun 23, 2016.

  1. Herkdriver

    Herkdriver New Member

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    Source: http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/zi...doubles-abortion-requests-study-finds-n597276

    I'm very open about being pro-life, but the situation regarding the unequivocal link between the Zika virus and severe birth defects provides an ethical dilemma.

    Caring for a special needs child is very difficult and not for the faint of heart. Add poverty into the mix and well, we can see a state of panic has enveloped these Latin American and Caribbean nations where the Zika virus is more prevalent.

    Whether the unborn child has these birth defects or not, women are seeking abortions as a failsafe.

    These countries make it difficult if not illegal to get an abortion and these women, are seeking less safe, illegal means to terminate their pregnancies.

    This is indeed a tragic situation, but it would be unfair to condemn these women for seeking abortions. As I say, panic has enveloped areas where the Zika virus is well established. They've seen these children born with severe birth defects that will require special needs for the rest of their lives.

    It's not unlike Down's Syndrome in that once the genetic markers have been identified in the fetus, over 90% of these unborn children are aborted.

    There are so many ethical dimensions to these situations, I'm at a loss as to what to do.

    First and foremost, I have made it clear in other threads...this particular mosquito species that is a known carrier of the Zika virus needs to be eradicated. In combination, all available global resources should be dedicated to some type of vaccine or treatment so as to reduce the risk of birth defects associated with the virus. Any and all available forms of birth control should be made available, regardless of religion based constraints. The greater "sin" is abortion, if birth control prevents an unwanted pregnancy that leads to seeking out an abortion; make birth control readily available and accessible.

    We are going to see this spike in abortions for some time I'm afraid in Latin American countries. I'm acknowledging the moral complexity to deny these women legal abortions, as they will then seek out more dangerous illegal methods.

    Situations like this certainly test one's faith, and rather than wait for divine intervention...humans need to act..and act now.

    Eradicate the species of mosquito that is the main vector for the spread of the Zika virus.
     
  2. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    You: """I'm acknowledging the moral complexity to deny these women legal abortions, as they will then seek out more dangerous illegal methods. """




    That applies to any time in history.


    ...and in Latin America countries where abortion is illegal, abortions still occur (THINK that over)

    Illegal abortions can be dangerous even if there was no Zika....


    There are no "ethical dimensions"....women should ALWAYS have a right to their own bodies.
     
  3. Herkdriver

    Herkdriver New Member

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    99% of abortions are done on healthy women terminating a pregnancy with a healthy fetus.

    If you can't differentiate the degrees of ethical consideration for these type of situations verses what is going on in Latin America, well then there's no need to continue the conversation.

    Abortion kills a human being. First and foremost.

    We can begin the various ethical considerations of say, the health of the pregnant mother, a fetus with severe birth defects or a fetus conceived by forcible intercourse; but even in those cases, a human being is killed.

    In 99% of abortions, the fetus was conceived by consensual intercourse and the health of both the fetus and the mother are not an issue. In these cases, the ethical considerations are far less complex. The fetus is killed out of convenience. Period.

    Personally I find killing out of convenience to be unethical.

    Where it gets complex is when the fetus has severe birth defects and/or the health of the mother is in jeopardy by continuing the pregnancy to full term, or when the pregnancy is a product of rape/incest.

    Even in ethically complex situations, a fetus is being killed.

    For those who consider the ethical consequences of life and death actions, like warfare, abortion etc. The conversation begins with an admission that a human being is killed.

    Many do not consider the ethical consequences of actions, like warfare, like abortion. What is being killed is dehumanized and devoid of the same valuation of the right to exist.

    I am a person of principles, or at least I try to be.

    Sometimes it's a lonely endeavor, as most bend like reeds in the breeze of modernity.

    I will consider the ethics of abortion, if I'm the last person breathing who does so. The conversation begins with a simple admission. Abortion kills a human being. From this starting point we can get into the various scenarios that add a moral complexity to a given situation.

    good day.
     
  4. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    You: """Where it gets complex is when the fetus has severe birth defects and/or the health of the mother is in jeopardy by continuing the pregnancy to term, or when the pregnancy is a product of rape/incest. ""


    So a fetus with birth defects isn't " a human being".....abortion isn't "killing a human being" if it has defects?

    You seem to find them "INCONVENIENT"...so waive your ethics.


    You have every right to have principles as long as you don't try to force them on others.



    It's very telling (but normal) for you to say, ""or when the pregnancy is a product of rape/incest. ""


    OK, HOW is the fetus different in the case of rape or incest?


    Is it NOT killing a "human being" if it's a case of rape or incest???

    The abortion for it is EXACTLY the same with the SAME outcome as an abortion due to consensual sex.


    So your bottom line is punishing women for having consensual sex by forcing them to stay pregnant and deliver a "human being".


    I'm sure you "feel" that 9 months of pregnancy and child birth are nothing more than a little discomfort and inconvenience which would show you have NO idea of what it entails....and , o f course, you'll never face it so it's easy to want to force others to accept it...
     
  5. RandomObserver

    RandomObserver Active Member

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    I am pro-choice Christian myself, but I hope you realize pro-choice does not mean pro-abortion. I have been watching the news of the Zika virus as well, and assuming that many parents would be faced with a difficult decision. I feel for them, but I would not consider them guilty of a "sin" any more than I would consider God guilty of a sin when a woman has a spontaneous abortion or miscarriage.

    I agree that our first priority should be to eliminate the mosquito and/or create an antiviral agent to block the virus.

    What is it that convinces you that the developing body is inhabited by a soul before birth?
     
  6. Herkdriver

    Herkdriver New Member

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    My argument, defending life, is not based upon religiocentrism. What that means is that a person's own religion is better than another religious belief or no religious belief. Therefore the concept of a "soul" is irrelevant to the valuation of a human life, at least in the argument I put forth in defense of the humanity of the fetus.

    We'll allow basic biology to tell us when a human life begins, and life begins at conception.

    You may or may not be familiar with Isaac Asimov, he was a Science Fiction writer. He came up with the three laws of robotics.

    Law #1. A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.

    Replace robot with human.

    A human may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow another human being to come to harm.

    Imagine if this simple law, this credo, was the basis of a Global ethics, transcending religion, culture and borders.

    The argument then is, when does a human being, become a human being?

    At conception, the human life cycle begins.

    I happen to be Catholic, but in terms of ethical thinking, I don't need the Pope, the New Testament or Christ, to know that a developing child in the womb, is as human as I am.

    Abortion kills another human being.

    A human may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow another human being to come to harm.
     
  7. RandomObserver

    RandomObserver Active Member

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    But while the robot is going through the factory, with all of the mechanical parts being assembled, it is a potential robot but it cannot "think" about what it wants to do, or wants to be, until you install the CPU, connect the wiring, and load the operating system. In the factory, if you decide to stop producing a particular robot, you just recycle the parts. No new robot (person) was activated so you have not ended a robot life. You just decided not to use the mechanical body you had started constructing.

    By the way, I do like Asimov's work (I just have not had much time to read fiction lately).
     
  8. Herkdriver

    Herkdriver New Member

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    "Potential"

    Those are semantical arguments. Same with using pain threshold, the viability of surviving outside the womb

    Arbitrary.

    What is a concept a 7 year old can understand?

    The living entity in Mom's "stomach" is his or her brother or sister...

    Not a "potential" brother or sister, in the womb, this is a brother or sister.

    A 7 year old can understand that.

    This notion of "potential" life, of viability...are arguments based upon legalese, on semantics.

    When does a human life start?

    Allow science to tell us.

    At conception 50% of the DNA of the Dad combined with 50% of the DNA of the Mom creating a new life, a new human life.

    It is not an overly complicated concept.

    You and I, started our lives at the moment we were conceived. You were a human being, in my eyes anyway...at this very moment. Not a "potential" human, a human...at the early stages of developing perhaps, but a human nonetheless. Not an ostrich, an elephant or a tiger...

    What is in Mom's womb to a 7 year old, is a human being. This life deserves consideration.

    That's my basic argument.
     
  9. RandomObserver

    RandomObserver Active Member

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    First of all I respect your right to believe personhood starts at conception and I defend your right to practice that belief for yourself.

    I believe personhood starts at birth because conception is just one of the many steps required to develop a complete human. In the last few weeks of pregnancy, the brain (the cerebrum) may be developed enough to process a meaningful thought, but the fetus is sedated within the uterus until it gets that burst of oxygen at birth (the first breath of life).

    I certainly referred to my unborn daughter as our "baby" but that did not make her become a baby at that moment any more than calling her a "pumpkin" would turn her into a fruit.
     
  10. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    So we shouldn't be sitting here on computers ...we should be running frantically around trying to stop car accidents, shootings, starvation....I mean sitting at a desk is "inaction"! We are HARRRRMING people!! :)

    I noticed that actual real problems dealing with abortion are not easy (impossible) for you to address......but they are real and what people do deal with in the real world.....and that doesn't include following the "wisdom" of 7 year olds...
     
  11. Margot2

    Margot2 Banned

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    Its not like Downs Syndrome........
     
  12. waltky

    waltky Well-Known Member

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    Study Shows Extent of Brain Damage From Zika...
    :confusion:
    Study Shows Extent of Brain Damage From Zika Infections
    August 24, 2016 — A report released on Tuesday shows in graphic detail the kind of damage Zika infections can do to the developing brain - damage that goes well beyond the devastating birth defect known as microcephaly, in which the baby's head is smaller than normal.
    See also:

    Florida Announces Zika Case Hundreds of Miles from Miami
    August 23, 2016 — Florida officials on Tuesday announced the first case of Zika transmitted by mosquitoes in Pinellas County, located some 265 miles (425 km) from Miami, where the first locally transmitted U.S. cases were reported.
     
  13. Fugazi

    Fugazi New Member Past Donor

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    Incorrect, life began millions of years ago ... conception is the continuation of a process that began millions of years ago, or are you suggesting that the sperm and ova are not alive?

    If you want this to become the standard world-wide then please explain how you are going to stop executions, self-defence killings and war in your own country, let alone the rest of the world?

    Whether the unborn are "human beings" from conception or not is irrelevant, regardless of the status of any human being (born or not) we still kill them.

    What is ethical in forcing another human being to become a slave to the state even if it is only for ~9 months, just to justify your desires?
     
  14. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    So you are going use this tragedy to try and justify the killing of healthy innocent babies?? Unbelievible.
     
  15. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    What?

    WHERE did I post that I justify the killing of babies?


    SHOW IT OR ADMIT YOU LIED.


     
  16. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    the post to which i was responding
     
  17. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    Well, here it is and NO WHERE do I "justify killing babies".....NO where...

    Quote Originally Posted by FoxHastings View Post

    You: """I'm acknowledging the moral complexity to deny these women legal abortions, as they will then seek out more dangerous illegal methods. """




    That applies to any time in history.


    ...and in Latin America countries where abortion is illegal, abortions still occur (THINK that over)

    Illegal abortions can be dangerous even if there was no Zika....


    There are no "ethical dimensions"....women should ALWAYS have a right to their own bodies"""""""
     
  18. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    You just did again.
     
  19. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    Funny how you can't point out where but just keep saying I did....but that's not unusual with Anti-Choicers, they never have proof of their claims......
     
  20. RandomObserver

    RandomObserver Active Member

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    People who are reality-challenged think the fetus is a baby already. The lady down the street from me thinks her lapdog is a baby (but the IRS disagrees when she tries to claim it as a dependent).
     
  21. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    I should've known but he seems to have problems explaining...




    ......maybe I should ask why don't women claim their fetus as a dependent.
     
  22. Fugazi

    Fugazi New Member Past Donor

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    One must assume you see a fetus as a "healthy innocent" baby, shame that medical science doesn't agree with you .. As we progress through life we are designated certain labels, if you are trying to suggest those labels have no meaning then I shall from now on refer to you as a child, after all it doesn't mean anything does it?

    BTW: You do know that the "health" and "innocence" of the fetus is irrelevant don't you or are you going to try and tell me that a healthy mentally incompetent person (which legally is what the fetus is) has the right to injure you without consent and you not defending yourself?

    The whole issue comes down to consent, nothing more, nothing less and when you can show me where a person has been allowed to use another persons body for their own purpose without consent, you might have a point to make, until then all you are doing is dancing around the issue.
     

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