Scots vote to remain in European Union while UK leaves! #IndyRef2 ?

Washington Post: "Scottish leader vows to seek second independence referendum"

"In Thursday’s vote, 62 percent of Scottish voters sided with the pro-E.U. “remain” camp, compared to just 47 percent in England."
​

Victory for REMAIN in Scotland!

To Scottish MSPs, MPs and PRESS RELEASE


Well done to us Scots for our conduct and leadership which really made the best of the European Union referendum which we didn't call, wasn't our demand but I really think we have done ourselves proud! Thank you so much to all those who played a part!


Time for a little celebration with some music perhaps? My favourite 2 minutes from the European Anthem, "Ode to Joy" by Beethoven!
https://youtu.be/IInG5nY_wrU?t=1h9m39s


Congratulations, too, to Little England and Wales on their democratic decision to leave the European Union. Good luck to them with that.


Meanwhile, Scottish representatives in the European Parliament, Holyrood and Westminster should seek to secure respect for the democratic decision of Scots to vote to remain within the European Union and to exempt Scotland from the imperial rule of Little England and Wales.

Scotland's wish list -

• borrowing powers for the Scottish government of up to 8% of GDP per year, in excess of £10 billion, or 14 billion Euros - welcoming offers of such from either the Bank of England or the European Central Bank or indeed both

• exemption from the EU Common Fisheries policy and respect for Scotland's exclusive economic zone, out to 200 nautical miles from the Scottish coast

• deployment of a NATO military force to Scotland to defend Scotland's southern border with England, to guarantee Scottish democracy and which military force to exclude any regiments or military units under UK command. *

* See also - Rice for President Yahoo Group, Message 2300: Open letter to Condoleezza Rice & NATO after Scots voted to remain in the European Union but England didn't​

 

62% of a turn out of 67%, means only 41.5% of the electorate voted to remain.

No reason for panic, no reason or legitimacy for a second Independence referendum. If WestMinster Parliment does eventually decide to allow another referendum on Scottish Independence, it won't happen until beyond 2020. By then Scotland will be out of the EU.

Getting the Scottish people to vote for the Euro & Schengen agreement and many other European failed ideas will be a tall order.

55% of an turnout of 85% in the Independance referendum votes to abide by the UK just two years ago.

Suck it up!

 

Give the scots power to negotiate their own deal with the EU. Just go.. "you sort it out".
No reason they can't be in the EU if they want to be. Just as long as I don't have to be. Carry on.

 

What you'll never get Sturgeon to admit is that the Scots and Northern Irish very nearly kept the English and Welsh in the EU against their will. We were very nearly about to talk about a referendum for independence for England and Wales from Scotland and Northern Ireland.

Still, the mad Jocks must seem like an odd bunch to the rest of the world in wanting back IN an organisation than so many other members want OUT of. Why would around two thirds of them want to meekly resubmit their once-great nation to German rule? It's like they are suffering from collective Stockholm Syndrome.

But one of the massive problems the Scots Nats have is that a Scotland back inside the EU - if it is allowed back in and, even if it is, it will take many years - will have to adopt the euro at some point, and that is something most Scots don't want.

 

Scotland should leave the UK, maybe form a Celtic Union with Ireland, and rejoin the EU

 

Wait, what? Scotland wants a NATO force to defend against England, a member of NATO?

If Scotland becomes independent, it won't be in NATO.

 

sure it will

 

Why? So the EU can continue to destroy the Scottish fishing industry?

 

If Scotland became Independent England would pay for her to be in Nato to make sure she had no need to ask protection of Russia

 

Uh no.

And it's application to join NATO would be looked at askew when Scotland consider's it's biggest military threat to be another NATO member.

 

By the same arithmetic, 38% of a turn out of 67% means only 25.5% of the Scottish electorate voted to leave the EU.

Who is "panicking"? I'm not.

There is every reason and legitimacy for Scotland to remain within the European Union.

Ah, so you too anticipate Westminster attempting to overrule Thursday's democratic decision of the Scots to remain with the European Union.

The Scottish people have on Thursday already given the order - to remain with the European Union. No-one has voted for failed ideas and no-one should be asked to either.

On the problems of the Euro, the solution to the failed "Stability and Growth Pact" is to increase the borrowing limit for countries from 3% of GDP per year to 8% of GDP per year and to abolish entirely the total debt ceiling of 60% of GDP. This would allow countries in the Eurozone to invest for growth.

That result is now in doubt because it was obtained on what has now been proved to be the false and misleading "Better Together" prospectus of the UK remaining in the EU.

62% of Scottish voters will not wish to suck up the decision of 38%, nor should we.

 

Why ever "admit" a falsehood? After all, it was the United Kingdom rigged Brexit referendum with its rigged question which tries to insist that the United Kingdom keeps the home nations bound to a common destiny.

The referendum question was not set by Scots and Northern Irish but by the United Kingdom.

Please do talk, hold and vote for independence to English and Welsh hearts' desire. Or simply declare UDI and walk out of the UK without even having a referendum. Scots and Northern Irish would respect such a wise decision of our English and Welsh neighbours to walk out of the UK and turn the light off, never looking back, leaving the UK in the dustbin of history to remain there for ever more.

It is not the "Germans" who are imposing austerity economics on Scotland. It is the Tory UK government which is doing that. Hence it is the UK which Scots are advised to leave by Scottish nationalists, not the EU.

Scotland has not left the European Union yet and may never do, not without a certain amount of kicking and screaming, at the very least and possibly with something rather more effective than kicking and screaming, if I can recruit NATO's assistance to defend Scottish democracy successfully.

That remains to be seen. Scots will want a growing economy and that's not happening with the UK Treasury as run by Cameron and Osborne.

If Scots get a good enough offer from a currency's central bank - I have suggested borrowing powers from a central bank which would allow the Scottish government to borrow up to 8% of GDP per year - from either the Eurozone's European Central Bank or the Sterling zone's Bank of England - I would be prepared to recommend such a good offer to Scots for our consideration.

So we'll see. If the Euro makes a good enough offer to Scotland then Scots would consider adopting the Euro seriously, especially if the UK Treasury remains as stubbornly fiscally conservative as it has been under UK Tory government and continues to impose austerity economics on Scotland.

 

All Westminster has to do is devolve EU membership of Scotland to the Scottish assembly.
It's perfectly possible for Scotland to be in the UK and the EU.
Go for it.

Does Scotland want to be in the EU because it believes in European Federalism, or simply because it doesn't believe in British Federalism?

It's a yawnfest sorry. Join the EU if you like. No one is stopping you. Just apply and then join.

 

England is no more a "member" of NATO now than Scotland is.

The official member of NATO is called "the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland".

"England", like Scotland is "in" NATO because both countries are "in" the United Kingdom and because both home nations want to be in NATO.

It is NATO's responsibility to defend the democracy of all its members, as democratic countries, to defend NATO values of freedom and democracy against all enemies, foreign and domestic, including rogue governments which violate NATO values.

It isn't NATO's job to look the other way while rogue governments violate democracy.

NATO isn't an organisation where "everything and anything" goes. NATO couldn't accept a membership application which might be received from the so-called "Islamic State" for example.

Scotland wants its democracy defended by NATO against any and all threats - the big threats, like Russia, and the lesser threats, like, I fear, a future UK government intent on ripping Scotland out of the European Union against the democratically expressed will of the people of Scotland as expressed in the referendum on Thursday.

Now I did point out in my post on Rice for President, which I linked to

Accordingly, I am forwarding to my beloved Condi and to you all, a copy of my email / press release to Scottish elected representatives, highlighting my suggestion that Scotland would wish, among other things, for a NATO deployment to guarantee Scottish democracy, though at this time, that is only my suggestion and is not, as yet, a specific request to NATO from the Scottish government.​

So Scotland, per se, doesn't, as yet, "want" a specific NATO force deployed as I have suggested, (I'm not the First Minister of Scotland so what I advise isn't the same as what Scotland wants now) but Scotland may want a NATO intervention force at some future time, particularly if and when a UK government starts dictating to Scotland and Scots that we aren't going to be allowed to remain in the European Union.

Finally, if Scotland becomes independent, there is every expectation that it will remain in NATO. That's what Scots want. That's what NATO countries and nations want.

I do worry that the Scottish Green Party don't seem to want Scotland to be in NATO after independence, but the governing party in Scotland, the Scottish National Party, does now support NATO membership for Scotland, as do all the unionist parties.

So there is overwhelming support for NATO in Scotland.

 

Your question was not addressed to me, but since I am the OP, I'll jump in here, firstly to quote from my OP.

The UK has several opt outs from EU norms - the Euro currency, the Schengen area etc.

So, if and when Scotland becomes a member state of the EU, Scotland too can press for opt-outs and one such opt-out I am sure Scotland will press for is exemption from the EU common fisheries policy and exclusive fishing rights out to the normal 200 nautical mile limit of a country's exclusive economic zone.

There are many reasons as to why the majority of Scots want to REMAIN in the European Union but the EU common fisheries policy is not one such reason - quite the reverse - for many Scots who voted LEAVE, getting out of the EU common fisheries policy was the main reason they voted LEAVE.

 

I get that the UK is in NATO, not England, but Scotland, an independent Scotland, wouldn't be, and would have to make an active effort to join. My specific issue is that you suggested a NATO deployment "to defend Scotland's southern border with England." So no, I don't see an admission to NATO being allowed if Scotland regards it's main military threat as England. We've enough problems with the Turks in NATO, we certainly don't need to add another Jacobite rebellion that NATO would be drawn into. Independent Scotland may have to go it alone if those are it's terms for NATO admission.

 

Well on the contrary, normally, the rest of Britain is considered by Scots to be Scotland's biggest military ally.

However, I am considering new circumstances which appear to be likely now of a UK government which will attempt to frustrate the democratic will of the Scottish people.

Even if such an undemocratic UK government does arise, Scots will still find our best allies in Britain, most especially those Britons, in England, Wales and Northern Ireland who voted REMAIN.

However, as all such allied REMAIN Britons get together to consider how we might resist the diktats of a new undemocratic LEAVE UK government, we would be well advised to make best use of the British people's NATO allies to organise our resistance.

Hence REMAINer Scots, English, Welsh and Irish first call for help outside Britain must be to leading lights in NATO leadership such as Condoleezza Rice and friends, and hopefully the President of the United States of America, whomsoever he or she might be.

 

Well perhaps a Westminister MP who shares your approach should go for election as the next PM of the UK because a UK PM with your approach would be a good negotiating partner for the Scottish government.

Different Scottish parties express their support for remaining in the EU differently - the SNP don't agree with British federalism but the Scottish Liberal Democrats do. For an overview, check out Scotland Stronger in Europe - Scotland Get The Facts page.
http://www.strongerin.co.uk/scotland_get_the_facts#0hBB0sUrz4ktdCvh.97

We'll see if it turns out to be so easy. I'm all for a negotiated solution, but would advise preparing for a tough fight.

 

Again, the threat would not be from "England" per se but from the United Kingdom, per se.

The people of England wanting England to leave the EU is not a threat to Scotland, not in the least.

The UK establishment which wants all of the UK, including Scotland, to leave the EU poses a threat to Scotland as and when the UK sends UK forces to enforce UK efforts to crush Scottish democracy which supports Scotland remaining in the EU.

OK, so you, Lil Mike, maybe you don't support Scottish democracy? Too difficult for you? Fair enough. But the best leaders of NATO, such as Condoleezza Rice, do support democracy, in every country in NATO, including Scotland. So that's why we should call Condi and not you.

This is because the NATO officials, such as Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg, are not the best leaders of NATO - simply the officials in post.

NATO should really be seeking to appoint the best NATO leaders into official posts - such as by appointing Condoleezza Rice as NATO Secretary General and perhaps with me as her deputy or senior adviser.

Rogue heads of state of NATO members, such as President Erdogan of Turkey should not be allowed flagrantly to violate NATO values of freedom and democracy and give support to secret agent terrorist proxies.

Rather, NATO, properly led, should be giving material support to Erdogan's opponents in Turkey, such as the People's Democratic Party.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peoples'_Democratic_Party_(Turkey)

For example, NATO could provide satellite TV facilities to broadcast Erdogan's political opponents into Turkey and jam official Erdogan propaganda, all with a view to having Erdogan impeached and removed from office.

The problem weak leaders such as Jens Stoltenberg pose is that they think, as you seem to Lil Mike, "anything goes" and one NATO country's undemocratic government is not a NATO responsibility to sort out, whereas such are indeed NATO responsibilities because undemocratic governments have security implications for other NATO countries - such as the ISIS security problems that Erdogan has worsened.

Democracy is a NATO cause that is central to NATO's mission.

The terms for leadership of NATO are support for democracy Lil Mike and you are demonstrating that you have no idea how to support democracy in Turkey or the European Union and as such, we don't need your advice.

 

I was quoting you. YOU said England.

No, the purpose of NATO is not to impose Democracy. Besides, you have it. You've had a referendum on independence already.

Condi would be very disappointed in you.

 

What I said was

The southern border of Scotland is with England. That's different from whose tanks might be crossing the border from England to Scotland because those may well be UK tanks and are unlikely to be the tanks of a sovereign English government but rather the tanks of imperial UK.

So you were misquoting or misunderstanding me but in any case, I am happy to clarify. The potential threat comes from the United Kingdom government, which could equally well attack Scotland from any direction, avoiding crossing the border with England with large scale land forces entirely.

So my mention of the border between England and Scotland is because that is simply the obvious line of attack for any UK force deploying UK forces mostly barracked in England, which is also where the UK seat of government is - Westminster, London, England.

To reiterate for the umpteenth time, the enemy is not, repeat not "England", not an English government but may well be the United Kingdom, the imperial power which routinely dictates to Scotland.

The founding document of NATO is the North Atlantic Treaty which mentions "democracy" prominently in its preamble.

The North Atlantic Treaty

Washington D.C. - 4 April 1949

The Parties to this Treaty reaffirm their faith in the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations and their desire to live in peace with all peoples and all governments.
They are determined to safeguard the freedom, common heritage and civilisation of their peoples, founded on the principles of democracy, individual liberty and the rule of law. They seek to promote stability and well-being in the North Atlantic area.
They are resolved to unite their efforts for collective defence and for the preservation of peace and security.
http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_17120.htm​

There is much more to a democracy than rigging a referendum and the outcome, rigging the question to impose a United Kingdom which dictates a "all in or all out of the EU" outcome, and then defying the results when Scotland and Northern Ireland vote decisively to remain in the European Union.

If that's your view of "democracy" I think Condi would be more likely to be disappointed in you.

 

As I previously explained, in case you missed it first time, the result of the Scottish independence referendum was not the final word on the matter.

In other words, Scots were misled by those opposing Scottish independence telling Scots that in order to maintain our membership of the European Union, Scots should vote "No" to Scottish independence and thereby remain in the European Union by virtue of our membership of the UK.

Now the reality is being exposed that it is precisely Scotland being in the UK which is causing Scotland to dragged out of the European Union against our national will. Therefore the whole question of Scotland's membership of the UK is up for reconsideration.

 

Uh, what?

 

You changing what you said doesn't change the situation. The UK is a member of NATO, and you regard the UK as the main military threat to an independent Scotland. Under those circumstances, Scotland will not be joining NATO. I imagine an independent Scotland will either form a military pact with Putin or with Venezuela.

The purpose of NATO is not to enforce another independence vote for Scotland.

 

It is a little ironic. 45 percent of the people in Scotland want independence from the United Kingdom, while 62 percent of the people in Scotland want to remain in the E.U.
What makes so many Scotts simultaneously want their own independence and to be part of the E.U. ?

I think the answer lies in the fact that Scotland is too small and not strong enough to stand on its own. The E.U. already includes many small countries, and Scotland would just be another among them. So many Scotts see being in the E.U. as a means to an end, to establish more independence from England. Much like how the Irish decided to remain in close union with the Catholic Church.