Corbyn beaten 182-40 in no confidence vote

though he is still saying he will not give up. I agree with a Scottish man who was interviewed last night and said 'they still have not got it'. The country or a very sizeable proportion of it are well fed up of a democracy which does not offer us the ability to vote for what we want.

Now one side of it has shown an ugly side encouraging or at the very least accepting racism all so Boris can become PM. The other side however wants a more humanitarian world and ought to be embraced by Labour. Instead we have a stitch up. We knew it was going to happen. They tried the antisemitism and now they are saying the EU though as has been pointed out by several this is just a cover.

Due to the insanity in England I would have been prepared to vote for Corbyn in the hope that this could be sorted. Now we know it is the Blairites trying to get us back to the position we were in before people became so deranged they were willing to support racists.

All I can say is God help England because I do not think anyone else is going to.

 

Not just England. The whole of the UK.

Jeremy Corbyn's a thoroughly decent man and I had high hopes of him when he became leader of the Labour Party, but he's hopeless.

He's too far left and a republican to boot. His arguments for leaving the EU boiled down to that it's not left wing enough.

Labour went from one extreme to another. I don't think the ones wanting him out are necessarily Blairites, but Corbyn has got to go.

 

A vote of no confidence is not part of the Labour constitution, if they want him to go then they must offer a leadership challenge. The MP,s just do not get what the party members want, they are the ones we need to deselect.

 

Angela Eagle's the one, after she gave Osborne 'the what for' when she was standing in for Corbyn in PMQs. Funniest thing I've ever seen - I still watch it on youtube now and again for a laugh.

 

I don’t see how you can judge hi as a leader since hes never been given a chance to be one. You can’t be a leader on your own and vast swathes of the Parliamentary party simple refused to be led by him. It’s clear now they were spending all of their time planning and preparing for the first opportunity to force him out.

Corbyn didn’t argue to leave the EU, he argued to remain. The difference is that rather than the headless chicken “leaving will be a disaster!” line from the official campaign, he presented a much more accurate and honest view “It’s far from perfect but staying in and trying to improve it is better than the disruption and unpredictability of leaving. If the Labour party had actually stood behind him on that they could have presented themselves as a rational middle ground and even with the leave result, would have been in a much stronger position than the inevitably fractures Conservatives to present a stable platform for the future of the country.

Sadly it seems most Labour MPs can’t actually see beyond the walls of Westminster, their careers and the political status to recognise that as even a possibility.

 

What I find so interesting is that virtually everyone say's he is a "thoroughly decent man" then goes on to say go. As if being a thoroughly decent man should exclude you from being a successful politician and leader.

Ghandi, nice bloke but too meek to make a good leader!

 

The situation is very different in Scotland. Me and my daughter were saying just how glad we are living here and not in the almost civil war there is in England.

Our job now is to try and keep Scotland in as per the voters. Yours, well it seems to be to find some way to con the leave voters and quiet the nationalists who have been let out of the box.

However going back to Westminster still not having learnt. First of all they are corrupt playboys. We only had the referendum to stop UKIP getting more seats in Parliament which is beginning to feel more and more like an old time elite 'gentlemen's' club - and I say 'gentlemen's deliberately as this is patriarchy getting in with the in group, (neo liberalism) where you need to think a certain way before you are deemed fit for admission. As Honest Joe said nobody was prepared to even try with Corbyn. Seems many of those he even believed were his friends were really just waiting till they could destroy him - and the political view point of those who got him his position. It has even occured to me that the destruction of Corbyn may very well be because he might win not because he might not. It has taken away much of the debate against the Tories but maybe that is what Labour is now just Red Tories as they say and of course need to take care of their own and those they serve which is global capitalism not their people.

What we are seeing is that Parliament is not a democracy for the people. Parliament is a meeting house democracy for those with the same views, people were saying as much yesterday. It does not matter what the Labour Membership wants, all that matters is what 'New Labour' wants. It matters what the Gentlemen's club wants not the people they are there to serve.

Obviously the Tories took a risk and went to the country in order to shut the door of Westminster to Farage and co. They went to the country expecting to lose and get rid of that problem but they did not lose and in the not losing they unleashed latent xenophobia which the far right were only to willing to embrace. As the Guardian said yesterday the unspeakable has become common place. No doubt Labour in Parliament are thinking 'Oh my God, what if the same happened and a Corbyn Labour got a resounding majority. We would need to work for the people, for social democracy. Better get him out now and then we can all just get back taking from the poor and giving to the rich.

Westminster is far to corrupt to be considered any democracy in its current form.

 

Even if he was an ********, he'd still be a lousy leader.

?

 

He was given long enough time to be a leader.

Ne, he always argued to leave the EU until he became the leader of the Labour Party when he didn't argue at all.

Nobody believed he meant it. I didn't believe he meant it and I'm a staunch Labour supporter and a staunch supporter on the EU. I was appalled by his attitude.

He doesn't want to be middle ground. He has very reluctantly moved a little bit from his far left ideals, that's all.
He's too far left to be the leader of the Labour Party. He would be more at home with the Socialist Party of GB

He's totally useless.

 

It's exactly the same, only worse. Nicola Sturgeon is obsessed.

can't be done until Scotland is independent, which won't be any time soon.

Mine o
is to find some way of not actually leaving So should yours be if you had any sense.

Corbyn has proven himself to be hopeless. Labour stands more chance with a different leader.

Labour doesn't have to be Tory lite, Alexa. Just less doolally.

What Labour are actually thinking is, "Oh My God!! How utterly useless Corbyn has proven to be."

Whereas the SNP is leading Scotland to prosperity (!)

http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/features/the-snp-has-failed-scotland

 

No it is not. The Scottish people are not torn apart. I did a search for increase in hate crime in Scotland since Brexit and it came up with nothing. This is an English Ethnic Nationalism game. One of them even called Ruth Davidson, a Unionist and having served in the British Army, a foreigner. English Ethnic Nationalism is clearly nothing to do with Scotland. Scottish Internationalists are thinking they made a mistake in not voting for Independence last time. Nicola is simply doing what the government wants. She may be unusual in that English MP's are too busy fighting with their own to give the country or their people any thought. Of course people say that the Brexit vote was a gift to the SNP but it most certainly is not exactly the same up here. All it has done up here is bring people closer together. In England xenophobia has been normalised and the country torn apart.

We shall see. I appreciate that Johnson and friends are relying on Scotland's current economics not being sufficient - otherwise there would probably be a Referendum on that soon. At the same time we are likely seeing England taking forever trying to decide whether it is going to follow the referendum result or not while fighting with each other. The fundamental difference is that we do not have racism and xenophobia now considered socially acceptable in the way you have in England. We do not have a rise in the far right like you do in England. ...and trying to compare having a first minister who is actually doing everything she can to find security for Scotland against the brittle and incapable Tories and Labour of Westminster is pathetic and desperate.

I am talking about Westminster so quit the personal attacks as they make communication impossible. If that is all you have then you have nothing.

The situation remains that people were given a free vote on what they believed was a binding resolution to leave the EU. This was led by some of those in Parliament. Regardless of my personal preferences to now decide to ignore their vote shows only corruption and that democracy is not real in the UK. This has nothing to do with my personal feelings concerning the result. You of course were trying to avoid this with your personal attack. The people were given what they believed was a free vote either leave the EU completely and stop EU immigrants coming into this country or vote to stay in the EU. The government not honouring that is a totally different equation to what my political viewpoint is. It is a bit like I said after realising this was the intent on Friday night - it is like they think the leave are too thick to notice.

He hasn't proven himself to be hopeless at all. The Labour party however has. Everyone knew from the very beginning that the intent was to get rid of him. A big try at the local elections by trying to make out the Labour Party was riddled with antisemitism with the intent on saying what you have just said and I can only say that given how the Labour Party was working to destroy itself at this time, he did exceptionally well indicating that he may indeed be able to win an election despite the dirty tricks by the Blairites in the party. I was reading today that death threats are being sent back and forth within the party so if you are trying to deny the pits to which the Labour Blariites have put Labour you have a long way to go.

I found an article after I posted before but I discover that Dianne Abbott agrees with me that the problem the Blairites have is that they believe he can win. I am afraid I cannot find it now but in it she was if I am remembering correctly suggesting that the Labour Party is after the Labour Membership not Corbyn................makes sense.

Which Labour is that?

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...labour-mps-plan-breakaway-group-in-parliament

now what was that you were saying about Tory light? At least Nicola has her eye on the ball. If there is anything which can be done to improve the situation of Scotland it will be done while Labour is busy committing suicide rather than serving the people the MP's are paid to serve.

 

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/s...ear-la-pasionaria-8299051#qZfCJ5thFK7AfyDt.97

Nicola Sturgeon is doing what she wants. As it happens, she's wasted her time.

Johnson isn't PM, yet, but it would certainly be a very unwise matter to hold a referendum in Scotland's curreny economic climate, though I suppose that depends o what side you may be on.

See above

She's wasting her time and was sent off with a flea in her ear. Scotland is part of the UK. More than half of people living in Scotland wanted it like that less than two years ago.

I have not made a personal attack on you at all.

The government cannot honour that. The government did not promise to honour that. Not at any time.

The Brexit campaigners lied.

It what way has he shown leadership qualities? When he fought with passion for Labour voters to vote remain?

What makes sense is that when three quarters of your ministers tell you it's time to go, maybe you should listen.

I'm not able to click on that link, I'm afraid.

I found this:

http://www.theweek.co.uk/jeremy-cor...n-labour-mps-expected-to-challenge-leadership

I like both John Watson and Angela Eagle, but John watson has ruled himself out.

As far as I'm concerned, I'd rather have a Labour government than a Tory one. That means Corbyn has to go.

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2015/1...and-nicola-sturgeon-is-struggling-to-deny-it/

Perhaps Nicola Sturgeon should get on with doing her job and stop chasing after a dream.

 

"Scottish MEP receives standing ovation in European Parliament after passionate speech saying Scotland 'voted to remain'. 'While I’m proudly Scottish, I’m also proudly European,' Alyn Smith said"

Jesus that's so breath-takingly grovelling I think I'm going to throw up. What a shameless toadie!! Just what the jobsworths want - lots of sycophants kowtowing to them. 'I'm also proudly European.'

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...pean-parliament-speech-scotland-a7107106.html

 

Exactly why to you is stating the position of Scotland as European which apart from her short time of Union with England she has always been and has been reasserted. To you Scotland is a foreign country. Her leaders are foreigners even those who want the Union and who serve in the British army.

Scotland's history is as a European country something she is now reasserting.

http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2016/06/29/scotland-a-european-nation/

 

Bringing Scotland into this is just your attempt to deflect the thread. I have no interest in your opinion of Nicola. If you want to talk about her and how awful Scotland is to England then start another thread. Meanwhile the people of Scotland are very happy with Nicola who is working as per their wishes in reasserting Scotland as a European Country.

Note this thread is on England. Note how you know the situation I outlined is as it is. Note how you have no answers and can only deal with the issue by deflecting onto Scotland.

I will agree that was probably an exaggeration. You were just deflecting so as to avoid the issue and being patronising to boot.

The government cannot honour the Referendum? It sure as hell gave me the impression that this was a binding referendum. Indeed it gave everyone that impression but instead it was just a game your friends and the other tories were playing with the British public. A game which has brought England to the brink of destruction. Very clever corrupt politicians.

As did the Better Together during the Independence campaign. As did the Tories and Labour during the 2015 General Election. As do politicians always and that is where the complete corruption in Westminster is and where the people who claim we are not a democracy just ruled by the elite have a very good point and where Radical Independence a left Internationalist group were correct when they said that the only way where Scotland were going to be able to get structural change and become a democracy was by Independence as the imperial structure of Westminster does not allow for democracy.

Now if you are stating that you believe that it is correct to go against the will of the English people in a Referendum because the Leaders lied, would you please tell me when criminal charges are going to be brought against Johnson and others and when they will be expelled from Parliament for this crime which is so great you believe it allows the Government to back tract on what the people and Europe were led to believe was a free and binding referendum.

When did any others in the Labour Party? This has nothing to do with Brexit and you know it as do all in the Labour Party. This was what was always intended since the day he was elected with an overwhelming majority of the Membership. You tried one ploy after another. You worked to destroy Labour in Local elections all because you wanted rid of the people's choice. That is Labour. Just another Imperialistic Tory party, treating the people of Britain as children, taking them into a place where the inequality in this country is moving back to pre victorian times and where hatred of the other is the worst it has ever been. The Labour you speak of has no interest in working people. It is a a party which has no interest or honour in democracy.

But to get away from another diversion. When Labour could be working to defeat the Tories, to bring out exactly what they are doing Labour is instead quietly supporting them while trying to get rid from Labour people who believe that Labour is a party which should work for the rights of people and stand up for the oppressed in a democratic way. Labour has shown she scorns democracy.

as we hear with death threats. Makes no difference to the reality that Labour like the Tories is no longer a party which serves the people. All she serves is Global capitalism.

How convientent. It is about your friends trying to do a battle to take the Labour name when you split apart something you have no worth to.

No, your destruction of the Labour Party and Corbyn is because you know he could win. That is what you fear. A leader that believes in Democracy and human and workers rights.

 

With all the deflection I was forgetting what this thread is on which is Corbyn and the Labour party.

 

You're the one continuing to bring Scotland into the thread. I pointed out that Parliament affects the whole of the UK, of which Scotland is a part.
Scotland is not a separate country.

No. This thread is about the government of the UK. Like it or not, that includes Scotland.

I'm being realistic and deflecting nothing. You're the one making personal attacks.

The government cannot honour the promises made by leave campaigners. At no time did the government promise it could.

No government could honour those promises. It's impossible.

The independence referendum is over. You ought to be glad the Nationalists didn't win. Think of all those lies told in the white paper.

As for the rest, it depends what you mean by democracy. To me, it means electing the government we feel can do the job best. It certainly doesn't mean mob rule.

I'm saying another referendum is not off the table. Many people who voted leave had no idea what they were doing. That ha become evident.
i
But its not up to me. If it was , I'd ban all over 70s from voting, I swear if I hear one more old fossil saying they just wanted their country back ( from where?) and moaning they didn't fight a war to be overrun by immigrants, I'll kick their stick away. And gouge their eyes out with it. Well, probably not, but I'm so angry.

That is nonsense. It has everything to do with his half-hearted and pathetic attempts to persuade voters to stay in. Plus the fact he's too loony left to win an election. Perhaps that's why a number of Tory supporters joined the Labour party just so they could vote for him.

Maybe they will when they have a strong leader. There's not much they can do when they're not in government.

We need to get real. We need the country to have a good economy. Without that there's no providing anything. Talk is cheap.

Stop making personal attacks.

I voted for Labour in the last election. Which party got your vote?

A genuine question.

He cannot win.I had such high hopes of him when he first became leader, but it soon became apparent he's not up to the job. He doesn't have the competence to lead the Labour government into power.

I very much hope he's replaced as soon as possible.

 

No you have been that person. You began straight away pretending the situation was just the same in Scotland. I humoured you by answering that but that basically is how you have managed to avoid dealing with the issues and distracting from the conversation about Corbyn. If you really cannot remember I suggest you look back. However if you are going to add lies to this, this conversation is over.

Yes and No. The op I started was on the Labour Party and its desire to commit suicide in its attempt to get rid of a politician overwhelming voted in by it's members and how this left England after the vile hornets next of xenophobia this has let loose in England. That is what the OP was on. As Scotland voted to remain in all its districts it's situation is quite different. Now Nicola Sturgeon gave the PM an easy way whereby he could legitimately have got out of this result by asking that it need to be accepted in all the countries of the UK. He refused.

I accept it was just inferred. However it was inferred sufficiently that Europe believed the UK was going to leave as did all our media. It was a con and it was a con with which the Government was intimately involved, members of it leading that campaign. It does show the corruption implicit in Westminster

A Government who will not honour promises has no business giving people the democratic right to vote whether they should be accepted or not. The Government is corrupt.

Irrelevant to this discussion and something you yourself brought in to deflect from the OP.

To you it means disqualifying all those who do not agree with your stance.

so you believe that Labour having a democratic system for electing their members is mob rule. Got it. There is no democracy in your thinking. You want what you want and want to destroy those with opposing views. What you are talking about is totalitarianism.

You are saying the Referendum was a farce. That it was only held to get a remain result and that if the result was not as expected by the elite it would not be accepted. What a waste of taxpayers money to add to the corruption.

This thread is about Corbyn.

Nonsense they had years and years of a 'strong' leader taking us into wars and they did not. That is why they lost Scotland and my vote that is why Corbyn was voted in and why Labour wish to remove him.

You need to get honest. This government brought in a Referendum pretending it was giving Britain a democratic vote when in reality it was not in a similar way to how Labour gave it's membership the right to have a democratic vote on it's leadership and failed to honour it. Westminster is an elitist regime and nothing to do with democracy.

Pointing out that you finding yourself unable to read a Guardian article which speaks of the plot to try to steal the Labour Party name is convenient to you is reality not a personal attack.

I think he would have been in with a good chance if Labour had come together attacking the Tories and I think that is at least part of the reason why Labour is prepared to destroy the party for this.

Put a link to some of your posts expressing these high hopes you had for him. Otherwise I think this is just you repeating a mantra many in Labour are now making when reality is that they put nothing into supporting him and were working from the beginning to destroy him even trying to destroy Labour's chances at the last local elections..

Whatever happens your side of the party is finished. Would be more honest you got together with Cameron's side of the Tories. People have been suggesting that for ages.

 

It’s not about time, it’s about having a parliamentary party willing to be led by him. Too many MPs effectively refused to accept his leadership and a significant number of MPs and others were actively working to undermine him. A naturally charismatic leader would struggle to survive in that environment.

He did. He didn’t get directly involved in the official leave campaign (which I think is to his credit) but he did set out a position, it was just barely reported and barely promoted or supported by most of his MPs.

What are you suggesting he should have done differently? Should he have joined in with the lies of the official campaign or should he have gone against the party and argued for leave. As I see it, his actual position was one of the few accurate and honest ones – there’s plenty wrong with the EU but leaving won’t make it any better. It’d be a very difficult line to win the referendum on, especially against the lies of the leavers but much of this does boil down to how much honour you’re willing to sacrifice for power.

I was purely talking middle ground on the EU referendum, which was never the binary question presented in the first place (which is why everyone is still asking “What now?”). His wider politics is a wider question.

A vast bulk of the Labour party members supported him though so maybe it’s his opponents who need to find a different party? Should a political party be directed by its current MPs or should it be directed by its wider membership? Maybe it should it move back towards some of its democratic socialist roots or should it continue as Conservative-Lite? Is it about getting back in to government at all costs or would keeping some principles as a strong opposition in the immediate term actually be better, for the party and the country?

 

I didn't do that out of the blue, Alexa. You brought Scotland into it straight away. I showed you how the situation is the same in Scotland.
You haven't commented. That's OK. Anyone else can read it if they so wish.

He was right to do that. What he did wrong in the first place was hold a referendum at all.
Imagine the furore if a population of 4.5 million could outvote the population of England?
It was a terrible idea.

Actually, it was inferred the UK would vote to stay in. Even by the Brexit campaigners.

They genuinely thought they could claim whatever they liked as they didn't stand an earthly chance of winning.

Shock and dismay doesn't even begin to describe the look on BoJo's face friday morning . It was near enough the only reason I had to smile that day, but that's old ground and has been done to death.

I'll still argue with anyone still bringing it up, though.

It's too late by then. They always seem to weasel out of it and people swallow all the humbug.

Not me. You always bring it in and I respond if I feel like it.

I see you prefer not to answer.

No, it means disqualifying people who don't understand what they are voting for. Those old fossils banging on about the war, for example.

They have no stake in the future and so I believe they should have no say in it.

No, I'm talking about MPs voting for their own leader. The other way is too open to corruption. Do you not remember how the Labour Party membership increased substantially before the election of the new leader?
Tory voters boasted how they paid their three quid to vote for Corbyn to ensure Labour couldn't win the next election

Not if the referendum was on whether we should accept the exit terms that had managed to be negotiated. Whether to stay in, or accept the terms.
No spin. No lies. Just the facts as they stand.

Sure

Labour wish to remove him because he's hopeless. I mean that literally. He doesn't have a hope of becoming PM.

I want the next government to be Labour, so I want him out. It doesn't have to be another Blair.

You may remember he won his last election because he'd promised to step down in favour of Brown.

No need to oust him.

You mean the government of the UK?

The link didn't work. It was incomplete last night.

I believe that rather Labour wants to prevent Corbyn destroying the party.

He would have had no chance. Only think of the recent antisemitism row.

More personal attacks.

Stop it, please.


Anyone want to discuss who could replace Corbyn?

 

I did not. I suggest you look at the first two posts. As I said if you are going to start lying this conversation is over. As you also have provided no links to your claimed initial support of Corbyn as asked I am assuming that is a lie also.. I did not bother to read the rest of your post because of this. The points have been put. There is no point in going round in circles. For now this conversation is over.

 

This is you in the first post:

This is me in response:

And so it went on.

edit: Is there anyone else who would like to discuss whether or not ousting Corbyn is a good idea?

 

And I did not mention Scotland as it is in a completely different situation. I mentioned England because I was talking about the situation in England. Even if you talk of Labour, Scotland only has one Labour MP. I thought it would be clear that I was talking about the xenophobia in England and the rise of the far right leading to things as bad as the murder of Jo Cox being praised on social media. Scotland has none of those problems. I am not worried about Scotland. England however is another issue. They are the people Westminster has let down.

 

Of course with respect to Scotland being 'dragged out of the EU against her will' that is a different issue and one which we will do everything we can to avoid but that was not what this thread was about.

 

Give it a rest, Alexa. Scotland is part of the UK. That is because a majority of its population voted to remain part of it less than two years ago.

Over 48% of us were dragged out of the EU against our will.

Don't forget 38% of the people of Scotland voted to leave, which is a sizeable number.
They weren't dragged out against their will.

Anyway, although I like Angela Eagle, she did abstain from voting against the welfare cuts.

I want to hear more from her.