Donbass. Here it is what you do not know.

Discussion in 'Russia & Eastern Europe' started by RUS, Jul 19, 2016.

  1. RUS

    RUS Member

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    The way the war began in Donbass.
    You've heard this version:
    "Suddenly the Russian attack on Ukraine and now Russians are waging a war against Ukraine in Donbass."

    In fact, it was different.

    Once in Kiev, there was a coup d'etat.
    After the rebels toppled the president.
    Once people who.. teached these students to shout. "One God, one language, one nation, it is Ukraine. Russian to the gallows. "
    .
    [video=youtube;OxssR_H7I_k]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxssR_H7I_k[/video]

    /
    After that these teachers come to power in Kiev….
    After that all, Donbass and Lugansk demanded federalization
    Lugansk and Donbass would become a federal state in Ukraine, as a state in the United States.
    It is a crime?

    http://www.peacekeeper.ru/en/?module=news&action=view&id=22818

    https://facebookreporter1389.wordpr...ters-occupy-donetsk-city-executive-committee/

    The new government in Kiev did not discuss this issue. It sent punitive troops to Donbass .

    This is the way the war began in Donbass.
    Now you know it.
     
  2. RUS

    RUS Member

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    .This is not the front.
    This is not the front line.
    It is the center of Donetsk. Residential areas.
    Artillery shelling. In Donbass.
    It made punitive troops ordered by President in Kiev.

    .
    [video=youtube;VII52Q8rt4o]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VII52Q8rt4o[/video]

    /

    [video=youtube;1fsMqYqHnN0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fsMqYqHnN0[/video]
     
  3. VSilver

    VSilver New Member

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    Also about Russian agression in Ukraine:

    MH17, 17.07.14

    "Strelkov", the Leader of so-called anti-government "rebels" (but in fact he is Russian mercenary), 17.07.14 admitted that his men had hit the plane.

    "We warned you, stay away from our skies," the message said in Russian, according to translations posted by Russian-speaking reporters. The message was posted at 5:50 pm local time on Thursday; the flight had crashed at 5:15 pm. The post included two videos that appeared to show a large explosion.

    [​IMG]

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...urs-leader-boasted-We-warned-not-fly-sky.html

    Than Russian "LifeNews" channel reported "a plane was shot down by rebels", and it turned out to be MH17

    [video=youtube;wIPkwhVHpJs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIPkwhVHpJs[/video]

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f00_1405864049
     
  4. VSilver

    VSilver New Member

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  5. RUS

    RUS Member

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    I believe we have come to a consensus.

    1...If the aircraft was shot down the rebels ("Strelkov" ) , it was a tragic mistake ....
    It was a tragic mistake, which currently enjoys Kiev.
    2...If Kiev involved in this , it was a crime.

    .
     
  6. VSilver

    VSilver New Member

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    It's the crime either.

    Strelkov is the Russian citizen, he was the leader of so-called rebels with Russian tanks, MLRS and Buks, Russian Leader admitted that his people had shot down the aircraft. It is the crime
     
  7. RUS

    RUS Member

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    This is a tragic mistake, which is primarily to blame President Poroshenko of Ukraine.
    Why Poroshenko not shut a "war zone" for civilian aircraft? ..... Even after separatists shot down several military aircraft.

    He did it on purpose. He did it for In order to accuse Russia of all sins. Poroshenko - the real culprit.
     
  8. VSilver

    VSilver New Member

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    "Strelkov", the Russian mercenary, with illegal Russian support with military vehicles, by his mercenaries shot down civil aircraft.

    After crash Russian Strelkov said: "We warned you, stay away from our skies"

    Russia and Russian mercenaries are guilty.

    You're a Russian, you always back Russian crimes. You back Russian occupation of part of Ukraine and back oppression of Crimean minorities by Russians. You back Russians mercenaries which shot down civil jet.
     
  9. RUS

    RUS Member

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    Right!!! Your link confirms blame Poroshenko. Poroshenko was"warned".

    1 ... "Strelkov" - military.
    Shoot and shoot down airplanes - it's his job. At war.
    At the Donbass there is a war. "Strelkov" did not begin this war . Poroshenko began this war.

    2 ... Poroshenko - President of Ukraine. His job - a civilian aircraft did not have to fly over the zone of war in the sky of Ukraine.Poroshenko did not do their job. Specially.
     
  10. VSilver

    VSilver New Member

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    In your opinion every Russian military job is to shoot down every jet, even civilian. You advocate for the Right for Russian military to kill civilian and to oppress ethnical minorities. After that you wonder why you so look like Nazi which also advocated for their right to shoot at civilian boats and to oppress ethnic minorities.

    The War in Ukraine began with Russian invasion to Ukraine. Mr Strelkov is Russian citizen, he was the leader of Russian mercs with Russian tanks, Russian MLRS, Russian Buks.

    Ukraine had to eliminate Strelkov and others Russians mercs to prevent Russian crimes on the Ukrainian territory.
     
  11. RUS

    RUS Member

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    You repeat your lies. I will repeat the refutation of your lies.
    Strelkov fired on military aircraft.
    He could not imagine that Poroshenko will send to death a civilian aircraft.


     
  12. RUS

    RUS Member

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    read carefully and buts on the merits.
    Poroshenko first started the war. Russia began to help Donbass after the war began.

    Russia helps Donbas as USA helping Kosovo Albanians.
    (*)Russia does not bomb Kiev, as the USA bombed Belgrad. there is a difference.
     
  13. VSilver

    VSilver New Member

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    Strelkov fired - it's the action. Strelkov shoot down civilian jet - it`s the consequence. Strelkov and Russian propaganda admitted that Russian rebels shot down the aircraft. They gloated.

    Strelkov is a Russian citizen, that illegaly went to Ukraine with illegal weaponry, he assaulted some Ukrainian state building and started the war against official Ukrainian authority and against Ukrainian sovereignty.

    Even more, he illegaly intimidated others, he said "stay away from our skies". What is it, so-called "our skies" for Russian mercenary? It was an act of intimidation, it is similar to terrorism.

    His act of shooting down civilian craft, because "he warned to stay away from our skies", is the act of international terrorism.

    You have misconception of chronology. I`ll remember you.

    1. President of Ukraine had escaped from Ukraine, but there still was legal Parliament in Ukraine, that ruled the state.
    2. Russia invaded and occupied Crimea state buildings and Ukrainian military bases.
    3. After occupation Russia organized the Referendum without any legal monitoring. Result of the Voting are untrusted.
    4. Russian mercenaries, such as Strelkov, assaulted state buildings on the East of Ukraine. Russian mercs were supported by official Russia with tanks T-72, MLRS, anti-aircraft systems such as Buks.
    5. Ukraine had the right and the duty to fight with Russian mercs, such as Strelkov.

    If Ukraine had eliminated Russian leader Strelkov and all his Russian mercs, there was not be an incident with MH17 that was crashed by Russians.

    You as always advocate for Russian Right to occupy, to oppress, to kill civilians by shooting down MH17.
     
  14. RUS

    RUS Member

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    You are deceiving the gullible Americans once again …. if you know the Russian language well .... and you're wrong, if you know it is bad.



    I give a complete translation of your links:

    111111111
    Yes, there are gloating because Strelkov shot down enemy aircraft .
    And What do you want? « À la guerre comme à la guerre»

    Yes, there are gloating , But this sentence requires explanation.
    Предупреждали же – не летать в «нашем небе».
    We warned - not fly in «our skies».

    Particle "же" – is not empty space. It conveys a shade of regret and bewilderment here.
    «Why ... why he sent men to die ...»

    I also ask the question: Why Poroshenko did not closed the "territory of war" for civil aircraft?
    Why, if not specifically …..for the Strelkov would shoot down MH17?
     
  15. RUS

    RUS Member

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    1…To this I will repeat. Strelkov regrets and wonders why people were sent to the exact death.

    2 ... Strelkov shot down several aircraft before the civilian aircraft was shot down.
    Therefore, your word "because" here is not correct.

    Strelkov shot down a civilian MH17, because he thought that this is military transport AN-26.

    .
     
  16. RUS

    RUS Member

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    "our skies" - This means - the sky, which He ( They ) protects against punitive.

    I recall. Donbass requires federalization. Strelkov fighting for federalization.
    Minsk agreements - agreement on federalization.
    To Donbass and Lugansk in Ukraine were like states in the USA.

    222222222222222222222222222

    - - - Updated - - -

    I`ll remember you too.
    In Kiev rebels did seize power by force.
    Parliament sided with the rebels.
    What there it is "legal"?

    33333333333333333333333333333

    - - - Updated - - -

    1…. Russia helps Donbas as USA helping Kosovo Albanians.
    (*)Russia does not bomb Kiev, as the USA bombed Belgrad. there is a difference.




    Once in Kiev, there was a coup d'etat.
    After the rebels had toppled the president.
    Once people who.. teached these students to shout:
    "One God, one language, one nation, it is Ukraine. Russian to the gallows. "
    /
    [video=youtube;OxssR_H7I_k]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxssR_H7I_k[/video]
    /
    After that these teachers had come to power in Kiev….

    After that all, Donbass and Lugansk demanded federalization.
    Lugansk and Donbass would become a federal state in Ukraine, as a state in the United States.
    Is it a crime?
    It is an elementary question.
    If you are not a fascist, you have to say – «No».
    Who are you?

    .
     
  17. VSilver

    VSilver New Member

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    Strelkov, who illegaly went to Ukraine with illegal weaponry, illegaly captured Ukrainian state buildings an illegaly pretend for controlling of the sovereign Ukrainian airspace.

    He said: "We warned - not fly in our skies", which means "do not fly in our skies, wich is controlled by Russian mercenaries". This is the intimidation for anyone.

    This is the Russian terrorism.
    Strelkov shot down MH17, this is the strong fact.
     
  18. Mandelus

    Mandelus Well-Known Member

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    What I can't under stand and will not understand is that the Russian minority in Ukraine are marked in Russia that their will of independence is valid and that it does not matter that region is part of Ukraine. I mean ... what about Chechnya please? The same demand and following civil war, because others inside Russia have not the right for of course ... combined to mark them as evil Jihadist terrorists too, which they were not in the beginning, but later when Russian Forces invaded region.
     
  19. RUS

    RUS Member

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    Have You understood it now?

    /
     
  20. Mandelus

    Mandelus Well-Known Member

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    You believe this? After all this hate and death on both sides, they will and want to stay in the Ukraine?
     
  21. VSilver

    VSilver New Member

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    You think Strelkov (from Russia) fight in Ukraine as merc for Ukrainian Federalization. But you have scant knowledge about real thing. Strelkov contend by his actions and words that he stood against Ukraine sovereignty - he partook in the Crimea occupation and had intentions to destabilize the East of Ukraine for further Russian occupation, as he did in Crimea.

    He and his mercenaries were supported by official Russia with illegal weapons: T-72, MLRS, Buk, S-22 anti-aircraft.

    Russian actions resulted in MH17 crash and civilians deads.
    Strelkov intimidated people "do not fly in our sky, which is controlled by us, Russian mercs" and finally he shot down civilian jet.
     
  22. RUS

    RUS Member

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    Yes. As a federal state.
    Like a federal state in USA
    1 ... Donbass have no other option. Russia does not want (and can not)to butting with the United States for the "Second Crimea".

    2 ... Once again I draw your attention to the fact:

    From the outset, Lugansk and Donbass demanded only federalization.

    3...Poroshenko immediately sent punitive troops, instead of discussing the issue of federalization.

    .
     
  23. Mandelus

    Mandelus Well-Known Member

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    But is this still the will of the people in Donbass to stay in Ukraine after the many killed people on both sides? Sorry, I have doubts! Sure, they wanted to be only more be in a federation, but I think there was too much blood shared in meantime!

    About who starts what and when are many versions existing and it is at least only a matter of what you want to believe. Any discussion about this is only a clash of opinions, full or spread Propaganda and brings lesser as to discuss if a glass of Vodka is half full or half empty.
     
  24. RUS

    RUS Member

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    My "version" can be checked. From the outset, Donetsk demanded federalization. Everything else - lies.

    http://www.peacekeeper.ru/en/?module=news&action=view&id=22818

     
  25. RUS

    RUS Member

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    All that was thereafter...
    It's not personal. It's strictly facts.

    /
     

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