Help, Electric Car Battery Questions

Discussion in 'Science' started by Moi621, Sep 27, 2016.

  1. Moi621

    Moi621 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Electric Car Battery, How Well Does It Age?
    That's my first question. After repeated use, time, how will "range" be effected?
    Or charge time and aging.


    When the Federals say the vehicle gets 30mpg, y'know you're lucky to get 24. Okay, 26. But, never 30.
    When the car battery charge is said to give a 300 mile range, will it or will it be like car's and mpg ratings?

    Anyone got answers? Thank you.

    Moi :oldman:

    r > g



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  2. Johnny Brady

    Johnny Brady New Member

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    Beats me, I'm a cyclist, but I hang in a survival forum (as 'Gamer') and they're pretty clued up about batteries and stuff, I'll post your question in their 'Transportation' thread and let you know if I get any replies..:)

    PS- meantime you can check out that thread and register yourself if you want to chat with them-
    http://thesurvivalpodcast.com/forum/index.php?board=66.0
     
  3. Moi621

    Moi621 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Thank You and
    No Thank You to joining another Board.

    Appreciate to hear any replies.
    Especially from those who have owned an electric vehicle for a few years.

    Similar to the health effects of being so close to EMF generators, (electric motors & electric generators)
    the problem of battery aging is never addressed.


    Moi :oldman:


    r > g


    :nana: :flagcanada:
     
  4. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I have a hybrid with anout 60k on it now. Mpg has not dropped off, which couldn't happen if the batteries were degrading substantially.

    I have heard thst Prius batteries were ststed to last less rhan 100k, but there are now such cars with well over that. It appears that Toyota was being cautious.

    The design is cautious, too, as a Prius is set to declare the battery as fully discharged well before it is actually fully discharged. The result is that the bad stuff that happens when a lead-acid battery is completely discharged doesn't happen.
     
  5. TrackerSam

    TrackerSam Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The battery's capacity to hold a charge will diminish over time. 8 to 10 years as long as they're lithium-ion.
     
  6. Moi621

    Moi621 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    So over that 8 - 10 years,

    range will diminish?


    What is acceptable as range decreases, should that be the case.
    Or will the battery just, "blip out" like my lead cell car battery.

    Thank You.
    I do not mean to be Socrateian. I Hate Those Sorts on Board.
    Contribute
    nada and just play question on question.
    I do not mean to be that sort, ever.


    So by Year 5, will my range be what % of the New Range Advertised?

    BTW I am a believer of "service stations" where spent batteries may be changed out for charged ones.
    That requires the Bureau of Weights and Measures to establish, "What Is A Car Battery" with specifications we accept for a D Cell battery made by various manufacturers.
    The gov't did it for "gasoline". What's the diff?

    No to Quick Charge over 5 minutes, like to fill up my big, bad, 4WD Ford Expedition with gasoline.
    Yes to being able to swap out a spent battery for a charged one and continue on my way! :rant:

    But, that's just me, from the Southern California Car, Personal Mobility Culture designed by . . .
    ta ta Red Car!

    Never Forget, like Calumet, Colorado (original Red Dawn) - http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0082642/
    What FREEDOM is all about.
    [video=youtube;EsZdKPPxHbc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsZdKPPxHbc[/video]​


    Americans' Freedom is about Americans' Mobility
    So Why Is The American gov't Supporting Price Controls
    to raise the costs of gasoline? ​

    As America believes in a competitive market of capitalism,
    why is oil / gasoline different?


    Moi :oldman:

    r > g


    View attachment 45992
    Across an immense, unguarded, ethereal border, Canadians, cool and unsympathetic,
    regard our America with envious eyes and slowly and surely draw their plans against us.

     
  7. Johnny Brady

    Johnny Brady New Member

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    Okay there's been one reply so far (below), and even if you don't want to join that forum you can still nip in from time to time to read any further replies..:)

    A lot depends on the chemistry of the battery..
    lead acid will generally degrade after 2 years and 5 years is about all I would expect from good deep cycle batteries.
    The LITHIUM ION or LITHIUM IRON should last up to 8 to 10 years.
    "Mileage" depends on many factors like vehicle weight and load,driving habits like rapid acceleration and stop and go traffic.
    Range depends on all of the above and the state of charge and chemistry of the individual battery.
    If you are a tree hugger and imagine saving nature while plugging in to charge your auto...
    think of the coal and other things used to generate electricity and how the already stressed electric grid can handle the load.
    Also as fuel was used to generate electricity....the electric auto is most likely NOT ECONOMICAL and there are few charging stations.

    A HYBRID may make economical sense,at first,with it's gas and battery power, but when you have to buy a costly battery and dump a ton
    of caustic chemistry on a landfill somewhere...you have just done more damage to the earth than a gasolene auto.
    Just my opinion.
    http://thesurvivalpodcast.com/forum/index.php?topic=58867.0
     
  8. Moi621

    Moi621 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Thank You
    Again I wonder if that 8 to 10 years will be a blip out or a gradual loss of range and charge time.
    Will consumers who purchased a 300 mile range electric vehicle be left with 200 miles after 5 years?

    Thanks again.
    These are sincere, I Wonder(s) no one has addressed.

    Moi :oldman:

    r > g

    View attachment 45998
    Across an immense, unguarded, ethereal border, Canadians, cool and unsympathetic,
    regard our America with envious eyes and slowly and surely draw their plans against us.
     
  9. perdidochas

    perdidochas Well-Known Member

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    Your smart phone probably uses an Li ion battery. The car should react similarly. There will be a degradation over time. It won't be sudden.
     
  10. Balancer

    Balancer Well-Known Member

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    It strongly depends on type of lithium accumulators. If it is specialized powerful accumulators which are almost all the time in the recharged state, then they, really, can work also 10 years, and even 15. I don't know what accumulators are used in Prius, but in Tesla, to my shock, it has appeared, household accumulators 18650 are used.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    They work usually about 5 years. And if to load daily, then resource 500 cycles will spend in general in one and a half years.
     
  11. TrackerSam

    TrackerSam Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yes. The range will diminish. Charge time might be the same. Electric cars are not the future IMO.
     
  12. perdidochas

    perdidochas Well-Known Member

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    I think they will be for commuter cars. If I could get an under $20k electric that had a 150 mile range with Air Conditioning, I'd buy one for commuting in a heartbeat.
     
  13. Hotdogr

    Hotdogr Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    My question about them is: What benefit does a REV (remote exhaust vehicle) have over a traditional car?
     
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  14. perdidochas

    perdidochas Well-Known Member

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    Cost of energy. A Nissan Leaf at 11 cents per KWH (roughly the U.S. average cost of electricity) costs about 3.5 cents per mile for energy. A 40 mpg car at $2.12 a gallon costs about 5.3 cents per mile for energy. A 50 mpg car at $2.12 a gallon costs about 4.2 cents per mile. So roughly speaking, a Nissan Leaf is comparable to a 55-60 mpg car. Also, I'm sure it's easier and cheaper to clean exhaust on a power plant scale than on an automobile scale.
     
  15. Quantum Nerd

    Quantum Nerd Well-Known Member

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    The efficiency of the electric motor is >90% at load, whereas that of the combustion engine has a thermodynamic limit of 37%, often lower in the real world. This means that an electric car takes less than half the energy to operate compared to a traditional ICE car.

    Of course, that point is void if the electric energy is produced through burning coal. But, ideally, electric cars will eventually be recharged through solar panels and wind energy.
     
  16. TrackerSam

    TrackerSam Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The supply of lithium is finite, and the price of lithium will increase as it becomes more rare. But the real problem is economic. What's happening is that after 5 or 8 years or so the batteries have to be replaced. People are reluctant to spend that kind of money on a car they are already tired of, so instead of buying new batteries, they trade them in. But no one wants to buy a used hybrid that they'll have to soon replace the batteries in. Bottom line is - they have no resale value.
     
  17. perdidochas

    perdidochas Well-Known Member

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    Do you have any sales stats to support the above contention?
     
  18. TrackerSam

    TrackerSam Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    No. Would you buy a used hybrid knowing that you'll be shelling out 3 or 4 grand soon?
     
  19. cjm2003ca

    cjm2003ca Active Member

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    when they say mpg for a hybrid that is when it is running on gas..not the battery life..30 mpg for the prius is not really that great..in the 70's i had a volkswagen engine in my plymouth horizon that got 53 mpg on the freeway..i put over 200'000 miles on that car and the gas mileage never got worse..but the gearing was much better than they are now..i would drive at 75mph and the engine would turn just 1400 rpm...
     
  20. Quantum Nerd

    Quantum Nerd Well-Known Member

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    Naysayers will always find something that they have a problem with. It is funny enough that they are worried about the finite Li reserves when the main energy source we use today is exactly that -- finite. However, in contrast to fossil fuels that are gone once burned, Li from the batteries can be recycled.

    In addition, modern EVs use batteries that have spare capacity. Thus, when the battery is new, it uses only 70% of the full capacity. As the battery ages, more and more of the full capacity is used.

    Finally, it is not like regular cars don't age. They require plenty of costly maintenance throughout their lifetime. In fact, it is one of the potential advantages of the EV that the complexity of the car can be much simplified compared to the ICE. That may lead to huge savings down the road when the tech scales up and overcomes the infrastructure advantage of ICE cars.
     
  21. Quantum Nerd

    Quantum Nerd Well-Known Member

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    People buy cars all the time that have a total cost of ownership of $15,000 per year plus. What's the issue?
     
  22. TrackerSam

    TrackerSam Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    How about you answer the question?
     
  23. perdidochas

    perdidochas Well-Known Member

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    I don't want a hybrid. I want a plug-in electric (with 150 miles range with A/C, under $20k) for a commuter car, and I would want it new. A hybrid has all of the faults of both types of cars--it has both an internal combustion engine, and a huge battery for an electric motor.
     
  24. DoctorWho

    DoctorWho Well-Known Member

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    The best way to handle the battery issue would be Electric Vehicles that rather than charge the batteries, you swap them out at service stations for fresh batteries, this way, you never have to buy new batteries, you are never stuck with dead batteries and you merely pay a battery service fee equivalent to filling up at a Petrol Pump.
     
  25. DoctorWho

    DoctorWho Well-Known Member

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    An Electric car with a gasoline engine and generator would be nice if you get stuck somewhere with dead batteries.

    I will likely build an Electric car at some point since battery technology is much better, the batteries are the major cost of an Electric vehicle.
     

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