Our poorly regulated militia

Discussion in 'Gun Control' started by Vegas giants, Oct 23, 2016.

  1. Vegas giants

    Vegas giants Banned

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    Perhaps this is the place to discuss this issue. I only ask for polite and intelligent responses and they shall be met in kind. I also ask the first person who uses insult to be called out by the others on both sides of this debate

    SCOTUS has ruled that the individual has the right to bear arms independent of a militia. (DC V Heller). But clearly the founders wanted us to have a well regulated militia. So do we? If by well regulated we mean in good working order and well trained I submit we do not. I think that we should have mandatory training to be able to own a firearm so we can have a well regulated militia. Members could be assigned rank (by the independent militia not the state) be qualified on a variety of weapons (which would allow ownership of ANY gun if deemed qualified) and drill. Each militia would be independent of the state except to certify training. I believe this is what the founders wanted. Who could possibly be against mandatory training?
     
  2. juanvaldez

    juanvaldez Banned

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    No its not. While there is an organized militia, ordinary citizens are the unorganized militia by being citizens.
     
  3. Vegas giants

    Vegas giants Banned

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    Then the unorganized militia is not well regulated
     
  4. Just_a_Citizen

    Just_a_Citizen Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The National Guard is pretty much as well regulated a Militia as you're likely to find here in the States.

    There are Civilian Militia groups too, but unregulated, & based on any of a number of ideologies, to call some of those ideologies suspect, is to put it mildly.

    Since each individual State figured quite large in the Founders' minds throughout the birth pains, & first 3 or 4 decades of our existence, & their " Militia " reference couldn't be much more identified as the National Guard, than if they'd had the term back then, I think our current structure is pretty much exactly what the Founders had in mind.

    Manditory training? So long as options for those who object to violence, I guess would be fine. I mean it seems to work well for Israel.
     
  5. PARTIZAN1

    PARTIZAN1 Well-Known Member

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    When the US was founded we were just 13 states all on the coast. The areas of Ohio, Kentucky, and Tennessee were hardly secure from Indian attack as were the parts of the states that those territories bordered. We had virtually no national Army. We also had what was left of the Tories that had not gone back to England. I know that there are people who either are denying that the country and the world was different in 1789 than is is today. But seriously even at the tine of the civil war if took more than just a matitia to beat the South
     
  6. REALITY CHUCK

    REALITY CHUCK Well-Known Member

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    This is a letter to the editor that I once wrote:
    ----------------------------
    A letter in this column on the 18th of February is another example of liberals refusing to learn facts.

    Your wild guess that the words “well regulated” in the second amendment means that the availability of guns in society would be controlled is wrong. “Well regulated” was a phrase in popular use through the seventeen and eighteen hundreds. It referred to something that operated correctly or was in proper working order: i.e. - a well regulated clock.

    In this case, that term referred to the next word - militia. In those days, there was no large, professional, standing army. Enforcement of the law and protection of the community and country fell upon the shoulders of all able-bodied, armed citizens - the militia. Both Tench Coxe and Noah Webster, in their writings about the second amendment, specifically saw an organized, citizen militia as a barrier to oppression by a standing army raised and supported by a tyrannical national government. The first ten amendments to the Constitution--The Bill of Rights--were intended as restrictions on the power of the federal government; everybody knows that. Why do people keep seeing a legal restriction to a citizen’s right to arm themselves in there?

    Allow me to restate the second amendment in current terminology that you might understand: A citizenry, well equipped, well instructed, and well practiced in the use of current technology firearms, being a necessary counter-balance to other men in power that exceed their mandate and to repel invaders, the right of that citizenry to purchase, own, carry, and use those firearms in a manner beneficial to other, like citizens, shall not be restricted in any way or manner by any level of government.

    “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”
    ----------------------------
    Now, if you are not familiar with the firearms community, this may come as a shock - the training that a huge number of private citizens subject themselves to at their own expense is staggering. I have been in this group for over fifty years. It is a fact that there are tens of thousands--perhaps hundreds of thousands--of private citizens that you have no idea about that are better trained than any police agency in this country. I don't place myself in the exalted heights of this group, but I have spent a lot of money over the years on training and practice. Don't get anywhere near the idea that gun owners, as a whole, are a bunch of bumbling fools that are thirty seconds from blowing their own foot off.

    Check out the NRA website or subscribe to one of their publications; you will find lots of training camps and seminars out there.
     
  7. Vegas giants

    Vegas giants Banned

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    You can not prove that gun owners are highly trained. If the militia was activated I would have no idea if the man next to me had any training. Our militia is extremely poorly regulated.
     
  8. REALITY CHUCK

    REALITY CHUCK Well-Known Member

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    Excuse me? How many firearms training classes did you say you have attended? How much studying of the NRA side of the subject have you conducted? Your reply is totally indicative of someone with no desire to learn anything contrary to programmed beliefs. I have been to the world you say does not exist. Are you accusing me of lying? So much for your request for civil input. If you are not prepared to face reality, don't go looking for it.
     
  9. Small Town Guy

    Small Town Guy Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    How does a SCOTUS decision that says an individual has a right to keep and bear arms independent of a militia and a well regulated militia have to do with mandatory training to own a firearm? If they are independent of each other then you need to explain further, eh?
     
  10. Vegas giants

    Vegas giants Banned

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    I am not accusing you of lying. Please show me statistics that verify training for gun owners. I would imagine that official statistics would be quite low. How would you know if I showed up in your platoon in a militia if I have been properly trained?

    And my firearms training was on active duty and the police academy

    - - - Updated - - -

    My point is that we do not have a well regulated militia as the founders intended. Mandatory training would accomplish that. And the Heller decision does not in any way prohibit mandatory training.
     
  11. Battle3

    Battle3 Well-Known Member

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    From the perspective of the Founders of the nation you are correct in claiming the "militia" is not well "regulated". The "militia" is the entire adult population, and they are not allowed to own the arms required to counter a standing army, and are therefore not equipped in the manner the Founders intended. The "militia" should be allowed to purchase, own, and store as they see fit automatic weapons, grenades, grenade launchers, mines, and whatever is typical of a standard infantry unit.

    That's what the Founders wanted, they state it quite clearly. You do not have to guess or "believe that's what the Founders wanted". All you have to do is read their own words.
     
  12. Vegas giants

    Vegas giants Banned

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    The founders expected the militia to be in good working order. This REQUIRES training not simply OWNERSHIP of a gun. I would never serve on a fire team with someone who could not prove his training. Would you?
     
  13. QLB

    QLB Well-Known Member

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    You've pretended that you were ex-LEO before but we have no way of verifying it. Your fund of knowledge on the subject was quite dismal. It's the same for your military record. Therefore any claims you make are dubious at best. This thread is nothing more than trolling and you know it.
     
  14. Vegas giants

    Vegas giants Banned

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    If you have nothing to add you are not required to be here. I am here to debate the issues.
     
  15. BleedingHeadKen

    BleedingHeadKen Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Voluntary training would be much better and likely would be well supported. Mandatory training is the very opposite of freedom.

    I don't think the Founders intended to indicate just one militia. They specifically wrote "a militia", meaning it's up to the individual to be trained and equipped.
     
  16. Just_a_Citizen

    Just_a_Citizen Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    http://www.constitution.org/mil/mil_act_1792.htm

    Clearly, as the Act itself describes, "Militia" equates to the Ready Reserve, &/Or the National Guard of each state today.

    Both are well trained, & armed, & along with our Regular enlisted forces, do a great job on the whole.
     
  17. Vegas giants

    Vegas giants Banned

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    Voluntary training is not working. There is no evidence our militia is well regulated

    - - - Updated - - -

    Your link has a virus warning and is blocked. The national guard is not every able bodied man as many suggest is the militia
     
  18. Just_a_Citizen

    Just_a_Citizen Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I had zero issue with the link, but I'm on an iPad, IDK.

    Anyway, this isn't 1792 either, & we've had a great regular military, reserve, & guard, for over 150 years.
     
  19. Battle3

    Battle3 Well-Known Member

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    You have obsolete thinking. Most "militia" - as in the general population - is not going to get in uniform, drill, assemble, then march to the battlefield to fight the Army toe-to-toe. That's not how it worked in Cuba, Vietnam, Irag, Afghanistan, etc. That's not how its intended to work.

    The intent is to make the general population competent enough to fight back in the manner each person and community is capable of and motivated to do. Historically, about 2-3% of the general population will be true fighters, people who will dedicate themselves to ambush, sabotage, harassment, assassination. Another 10% will dedicate themselves to supporting those fighters. Those are the organized resistance, the partisans. They are not the Army. They act in situations that are in their favor, they strike and run away, they make it so painful to the enemy that the enemy gives up and leaves, to the enemy its death by 1,000 cuts.

    In the USA, given the high numbers of military and the high numbers of gun owners, those percentages will be higher.

    And it works. Why do you think gun confiscation is such a high priority with all tyrants, including the "progressives"?
     
  20. Vegas giants

    Vegas giants Banned

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    Many disagree with you on what constitutes the militia
     
  21. BleedingHeadKen

    BleedingHeadKen Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    What is "our" militia? The 2nd amendment does not specify "our" or "the" militia.
     
  22. Just_a_Citizen

    Just_a_Citizen Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I guess it would depend what century you're in.

    As it stands, & as I've shown, the Guard, Reserve, & Regular Enlisted Armed Forces, Constitutionally fill the bill.

    Great talking to you.
     
  23. Vegas giants

    Vegas giants Banned

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    Our militia is no better than a mob. The militia in our founders day did drill and train. Ours is not well regulated. It seems some people demand that our militia be poorly regulated
     
  24. tkolter

    tkolter Well-Known Member

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    We have now a standing professional army so don't need a militia which back then was the army. The Federal government was allowed a Navy and one could argue for territories a modest force for security but States were to call up the Militia and turn them over to the Federal government to make up the army which we don't need anymore since we have professional soldiers to do that role.

    And if we were invaded in force who cares how well trained the unregulated militia is the ones unfit will die and the ones worth something will survive, and our entire military would no long her there to help us.
     
    Just_a_Citizen likes this.
  25. Vegas giants

    Vegas giants Banned

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    I agree. What do you think it is?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Our militia may someday fight our army. Shouldn't they be trained?
     

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