Sincere request to help me understand why you feel abortion is not murder.

Forgive me if this has been covered but I am new here and did not see such a post in recent time. I have seen in the last few days a few logical liberal responses to various topics that, though I still did not agree with them, at least could see how their perspective may seem right to them.

Sincerely, my wording is not meant to offend, but my question is, to only those who have seen and read the exact details of the abortion procedure, how can you not consider abortion as the most diabolical, tortuous, evil form of murder of innocents that has ever been conceived in the dark hearts of man?

If you do not, please help me understand why.

 

I've never really thought about abortion much but I remember when I was a boy wondering if I could go to hell for masturbating to Farrah Fawcett.

 

And what does that have to do with my question?

 

It has been covered in this forum quite thoroughly if you're not too lazy to do a search......oh , and the Supreme Court and the law of the land say it isn't, they covered it already.
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Your wording was meant to offend , how could it not when you call millions of women evil , diabolical, murderers...


YOU obviously have NOT read the real details of an abortion or you wouldn't be using all the dramatic unscientific adjectives to describe a simple medical procedure.


Only a "person" can be murdered. A fetus isn't legally a person.


IF a fetus was ever deemed a "person" it would have rights and RESTRICTIONS like any other person. We have rights but are restricted from using another person's body to sustain our lives. Did you want the fetus to have MORE rights and less RESTRICTIONS than the person it's in?? Why?

 

"Legal" and "Right" are more often than not mutually inclusive, as in this case. I did not call women evil, only the procedure. A labotomy and triphoning are simple medical procedures but that does not make them any less brutal.

I have seen videos of the procedure, pics, accounts etc. of fetuses, human fetuses, butchered yet alive, clawing at life as the procedure completes.

So, your and my drama aside, your point is you do not feel it's murder because a fetus isn't human?

 

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Uh, people who do terrible things are considered terrible......are you contending that people who do terrible things are innocent???? What???

It doesn't make them abortions ...and they don't make other procedures brutal.....what ARE you talking about???

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Oh ya, (yawn) from all your favorite Anti-Choice websites....been there /debunked that crap.

You have some serious studying to do.

NO WHERE did I say a fetus wasn't human. NO WHERE.

It is not murder because a fetus is not a person . Murder can only be committed against a person.

....and yes, put the drama aside and deal in facts...it speeds up learning...



Learn to use the quote feature so the person you're addressing is notified they have a response and you are able to direct your response.

 

No Problem, quotes as you wish.

No, I am sorry for the women who are having the abortions because I feel they are mistuided, but as for those performing the peocedure, then yes, I would call that person evil.

I would liken the crushing of a fetal skull to either, which happens in certain abortions.

So again trying to understand, you are saying something can be "human" but not a "person"? Can you differentiate your definitions of both for me please? And since you believe there is a difference, I assume the phrases should be changed too ,,,"person rights" and "person race" and "personkind" etc.?

 

Let us start with WHERE you are getting your information. If it is not a medical text then you probably do not understand what abortion is

I will make a little bet here. Your sources are pro life blogs that never talk of the vast majority of abortions occurring in the first few months of pregnancy or the increasing use of the "medical" abortion that is commonly done at home and, especially when done in the first few weeks very much like a late heavy period

 

You have been watching the so called pro life sites haven't you? This may come as a shock but not everything you find on the internet is true

 

The rhetoric of crushing skulls means you have been suckered in relation to late term abortions. The vast majority of late term abortions are done for foetal abnormality incompatible with life. They are done because the parents do not want their child to suffer


Is that evil???

 

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How patronizing, condescending and sexist..

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This is why Trump got in so much trouble when he said women should be punished for having an abortion.

The right does not want that "punish women" thing publicized, it's bad PR.

They don't want to look like the baddies by wanting people's wives, mothers, sisters, grandmothers, aunts, thrown in jail for "murder' (or executed).

They don't want people to notice that breaking the law requires punishment by the person breaking the law.

There would be NO one ( performing the peocedure) if a woan hadn't asked for one.,,,,,so yes, you are calling women evil and diabolical.

If you hire a hit man and he's successful, you are BOTH charged the same.

It may happen (maybe you could give factual examples from scientific sites not LIENews or some other Anti-Choice site) but it doesn't happen in most abortions

Exactly, one has to be born to be a person.

There are nouns ( A human) and adjectives (human, human rights, human race). Every human fetus is human, it is not legally a person (A human)_ until it's born.


IF you want a fetus to have the same rights as other person's then it would have to have the same restrictions and one of those is we can't use another person's body to sustain our own life without their consent.

You want that right taken away from pregnant women.

YOU want the fetus to have more rights than the PERSON it's in...

 

"Sincere request to help me understand why you feel abortion is not murder."

a clump of cells is not a human life

 

Would you consider doctors and nurses who have physically performed the procedures be valid sources?

I don't blog and this is the first political forum I've ever experienced.

So posed to you, do you also believe something "human" cannot be a "person"?

You have pointed out where you believe me to be wrong but have not answered exactly why you think abortion is not murder, my original question.

 

Oh yes I have. First I had to determine your definition of abortion and it appears to be ripping apart a fully formed foetus

I have since explained why late term abortion is little different to euthanasia. And if you think that there is nothing worse than death the I invite you to take a stroll through some of my memories of many many years as an ICU nurse

 

I answered, you ignored: ""It is not murder because a fetus is not a person . Murder can only be committed against a person.""

 

I believe you to be dusengenuous with your post. You are not trying to understand whether abortion is "murder" or not you are attempting to denigrate those who belive that abortion is a choice that a woman may have to make for various reasons. I am not in favor of abortion and I woukd never want abirtion to be used as a birth control method.

Look at you words! They are not questioning they are accusatory. "Diabolical", "Evil form of murde of innocents". Now. "tortuous"- Which means twisty, complicated , snaky, windy , zig zags, circuitous Indo not know why you are describing abortion that way but you must have your reasons.

Then you end you tirade with " conceived in the dark hearts of man".

You are not looking for an open, honest or intellectual discussion. You are bent on spitting your vermin on those people who believe that abortion is a legal and legitimate right even if they do not personally believe in the use of abortion.

If you had wanted to have an honest discussion you would have asked your question or stated a position is an honest respectful way. You sir are a failure as a alleged "honest" poster and you have exposed your own dishonesty via your own words. You are a failure!

 

As I noted in my opening post you failed or never intended to pose a question. You made an accusation not an honest invitation for a duscussion. You are not here fir an honest discussion or to ask honest questions, you are here on a crusade.

If you were an honest person you would have stated your position against abortion along with your reasons and honestlybinvited us to discuss it. Instead you call people who you disagree with as having dark hearts. Ok that is your opinion but why don,t you take a stand but be honest about about it playing a stupid little childish middle school girl game of " oh look at me I going to trick people into a trap ". I don,t know what your background or age is but your approach is that of an ignorant childish imp trying to act like an adult.

 

First of all...I agree with the people who see your "wording" as offensive...and probably intentional.

Two...I agree with the people who have mentioned that abortion is not murder because a fetus IS NOT a person.

Third...even if we came to the point where a fetus is declared a person...it would still not be murder, because "murder" is the unlawful taking of a human life by another human. Abortion...IS NOT illegal.

I might ask you a sincere question in return...and understand that I do not mean my wording to be insulting:

How can you not see that a woman should have control over her body to the point where if she wants to terminate a pregnancy occurring in her own body...that should be her choice alone...without interference from you or people like you?

 

No, I believe it to be misguided, that no matter what the intention, the end result is murder as that life deserves the chance to live. Simply put, we are not God.

I have a niece who is a special needs child. Her mother knew it would be a long shot, a very difficult road for the child and everyone else before the birth, but she felt abortion was not her right, but the child had a right to try and survive. Though it is very difficult now, and her communication abilities are almost always non existent, when she does communicate, the love and happiness that exudes from her is jaw dropping, and humbling. She has fought us all more than we could ever learn about love from any other avenue.

 

Bringing a child like that into the world for what YOU can get out of it seems quite cruel and unfeeling to me.

Some women might choose not to do that to another human being...and that is their right.

 

So you and others are volunteering to assume the care and the responsible as well as the emotional suffering that go along with caring for those babies that can not live beyond a short time after birth?

Of course that is hardly even enough as there is the question of forcing women to go through the health risks and pain of carrying a fetus to full term against their wishes.

You sir wish to turn pregnant women into slaves in order that your moral positions can be upheld.

Add to that you will only be able to force your positions on poor women no matter what the laws are in the US as middle class and above will just get on a plane and travel to a part of the world that abortions are both legal and safe.

Or are you planning to demand a pregnancy test for all women leaving the US?

 

So what does that make my wife and millions of other women who believe the same?

On the contrary if the hit man himself, who has personal gain at stake, has convinced you in an severe emotional state, in a time of great emotional crisis, under duress that his method is the only answer those are typically the types of extenuating circumstances that a jury would consider a victimization as opposed to a crime.

"Most"...but if it happens in once, is that just the cost of doing business?

Webster-
Person: a human being.
synonyms: human being, individual, man/woman, child, human, being, (living) soul,

See human used as a noun here synonymous with person?

Not so, children have the same rights as us but NOT the same restrictions, on the contrary, they have more rights than us because we have the obligation to protect them at all costs due to their inability to do so themselves.

I do not want to take away the rights of the pregnant women, but I believe she does not have the right to kill the fetus in her body that is not an "it" but a human, especially if she is partially responsible for their existence.

 

Fair enough, an emotionally charged issue to say the least.

So far, the main argument I see presented is fetuses are human but not people and therefore justifies abortion. Please correct me if I have misinterpreted this.

What is your argument that it is not murder?

 

I stated exactly what my position was on abortion....I asked for those who believe it is not "why"? Agreed I could have done so with less vitriol and accusation etc. Again, a passionate and painful subject.

 

Although I whole heartedly disagree with you, I do understand your position now, and it has been enlightening, I had no idea some people thought you had to be born to be a person. I assumed it to be self evident.

"I knew you before I formed you in your mother's womb. Before you were born I set you apart and appointed you as my prophet to the nations." Jeremiah 1:5.