Don’t Abolish The Electoral College, Abolish The Popular Vote

Discussion in 'Elections & Campaigns' started by Space_Time, Dec 30, 2016.

  1. Space_Time

    Space_Time Well-Known Member

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    I don't think many people would go for this. A lottery seems really undemocratic. And people are attached to voting in elections I think it would be hard for them to give that up.

    http://reason.com/blog/2016/12/29/dont-abolish-the-electoral-college-aboli

    Don’t Abolish The Electoral College, Abolish The Popular Vote
    The popular vote doesn't matter, so why continue pretending that it does? It only causes confusion and frustration. There's better ways.
    Eric Boehm|Dec. 29, 2016 2:40 pm
    MOLLY RILEY/UPI/Newscom
    MOLLY RILEY/UPI/Newscom
    It was the perfect ending to the strangest election in modern American history. Donald Trump was officially elected as the next president of these United States on December 19, winning by a wide margin in the Electoral College despite having lost the national popular vote six weeks earlier.

    Trump's unexpected victory and loss in the popular vote unleashed a torrent of hot takes from Democrats and liberals calling for the abolition of the Electoral College. Their frustration is somewhat understandable, even if their motivations are purely political—after all, Democratic candidates have now won the popular vote in four of the five presidential contests held this century, but have lost three times in the Electoral College.

    The basic argument goes something like this: the Electoral College is a relic of an age when democracy was still developing—an age when senators weren't even elected by popular vote—and that Article II, Clause II of the U.S. Constitution should be dumped into the rubbish bin of history. "Yes, Mr. Trump won under the rules, but the rules should change so that a presidential election reflects the will of Americans and promotes a more participatory democracy," opined the New York Times editorial board.

    In response, there's been nearly as many Republicans and conservatives leaping to defend a system that has worked in their favor. The Electoral College was designed to prevent coastal elites from large states from getting to pick the president, they argue, and it is thus working perfectly well.

    The Founding Fathers who designed the Electoral College were certainly skeptical of direct democracy and the mob-like factions that it could create. "The people, stimulated by some irregular passion, or some illicit advantage, or misled by the artful misrepresentations of interested men, may call for measures which they themselves will afterwards be the most ready to lament and condemn," warned James Madison in Federalist #63. I think they were right to be concerned. That's not to say that they would look at the current state of affairs and conclude that everything is working exactly as it should.

    Because, let's be honest here, it's not. This election—for reasons that go far beyond the Electoral College—brought out the worst of America. That's at least in part because of the illusion of electoral agency. People cried over Clinton's loss because they believed she should win, yes, but also because they believed they had helped her win—millions of people in California, New York, and other deep blue states wrongly believed their support would affect the outcome of the presidential race. It didn't, and learning that fact is painful.

    In response, many of those same people want more agency in the process—more "participatory democracy," as the Times put it. That's why there are calls for the popular vote to be the only thing that matters.

    More democracy isn't the cure for these problems. From Plato to John Stuart Mill to Bryan Caplan, there's no shortage of political thinkers who have exposed the deep cracks in the idea. In a new book, "Against Democracy," Georgetown University political philosopher Jason Brennan adds to the list. Voters are irrational, ignorant, and incompetent, he argues, and placing limits on democracy makes just as much sense as letting attorneys sort through a pool of jurors to dismiss those who are disqualified. Brennan envisions a system where only coolly rational and educated individuals, those least likely to be affected by the emotional and partisan elements of politics, vote—though he's not clear on whether others would be excluded or whether he wishes they would just stay home.

    I'm not sure it is possible to implement Brennan's epistocracy in the United States in any broad way, but the existence of the Electoral College gives us an opportunity to see what less democracy in presidential races might look like. It's hardly a bad thing.

    With the prospect of Campaign 2020 kicking off before the headaches of Campaign 2016 have faded, allow me to suggest a better way forward. Keep the Electoral College, with some minor tweaks, and abolish the popular vote.

    Yes, get rid of the popular vote. For all the money, time, and attention paid to the presidential race, the actual votes cast on Election Day are basically meaningless. In non-swing states, votes are literally meaningless. Even in states where a small number of votes could change the outcome of the election, your vote and mine are still so insignificant as to be practically worthless, as Reason editor in chief Katherine Mangu-Ward explained in detail in 2012.

    The only reason to hold popular votes for president, as the system functions now, is to select the "electors" from each state who will participate in the Electoral College.

    Here's a better way. Hold a national lottery to determine the 538 electors (drawing an appropriate number from the voter rolls of each state) and then let those people choose the president.


    "Undemocratic!" you might be tempted to cry out.

    Well, yes, but not really much less democratic than the system we currently use and, arguably, more democratic than the original design of the Electoral College, in which Electors were not bound in any way to the results of the popular vote in their states. The Founders envisioned a system in which well-read elites would be responsible for choosing the president, in theory as a check against the masses. With a lottery-based system, we'd be returning to that original idea, but with a populist twist.

    The benefits of such a model, I'd argue, far outweigh the miniscule loss of casting a meaningless vote for president.

    Consider: Almost everyone would get to ignore the election, if they want, because they don't have to pretend to care about it as a form of signaling. The Electors would be the only ones whose votes matters—the lottery to pick them would have to be held a few months before Election Day, I suppose—and everyone else could get on with their lives (or try to influence the Electors, if they are so inclined).

    For starters, there would be unmeasurable benefits in the form of freeing people of the mental and emotional anguish created by presidential campaigns like the one we just experienced.

    This model would seriously alter presidential campaigning as we know it, but mostly in a positive direction. There would be no need for broad appeals to races or classes, no more vapid identity politics, no more absurdly expensive (and months-long) campaigns, no more endless dissection of polls and un-skewing of cross-tabs.

    In return for getting rid of all that cable news talking head fodder, we'd get something better. Each candidate would know exactly who they had to convince to win—a single mother from Toledo, a retiree from Albuquerque, a CEO from Seattle, and so on—and the 538 Electors would have tremendous power to force a discussion on the issues they cared about. It would be a months-long town hall debate—a real one, not one made for television—with the Electors standing in for all Americans.

    There are other benefits too. With the presidential race truly out of the average voter's hands, those who want to be engaged in politics could (and would) focus on other races. More scrutiny of congressional, gubernatorial, and state legislative races would be welcome and would be possible only if we restore the presidential circus to its proper place.

    Weighed against the questionable, miniscule, and illusory benefits of the presidential popular vote, the better choice seems clear. Let the Electoral College, with some tweaks, rule.

    Eric Boehm is a reporter at Reason.com.
     
  2. RPA1

    RPA1 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Good thread!!! Although the popular vote is basically meaningless, (we all vote for electors not candidates) I still think it may serve a purpose in supporting investigations into elections where there is a great disparity. The Electoral College should always be the deciding factor UNLESS the popular vote is way out of whack.

    Historically one of the weirdest Presidential election was John Q Adams and Andrew Jackson where the House of Representatives voted Adams into the White House after neither candidate got 131 electoral votes.

    Bush squeaked by with 5 more electoral votes than Gore. That decision went all the way to SCOTUS.
     
  3. Aleksander Ulyanov

    Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

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    :roflol::roflol:

    How dare he? Does he seek to usurp the God-Emperor before the dynasty is even established? :wink:
     
  4. vman12

    vman12 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It doesn't matter what system is used.

    If the system in question causes democrats to lose, they will want to get rid of it.

    They don't really believe in anything unless it benefits them here and now.
     
  5. Robert

    Robert Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Rush Limbaugh got it correct.

    We have had world series where the loosing team had far fewer runs than the winning team had.

    And we have also had them just the opposite.

    The Yankees once hit so many runs, counting just runs, they ran away with the world series.

    But the Pirates won 4 games though in those 4 games, they barely won. As I recall this story, the Yankess though losing the series, had scored almost double what the Pirates scored.

    I think to Democrats, the team with the most runs had to have won the series.
    http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/daily/2...uling_against_the_will_of_the_american_people


     
  6. RPA1

    RPA1 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yep....Unfortunately for butt-hurt Dimmies, Trump won the Geographic U.S. It's the number of States and precincts 'stupid.' Hey Libbies, you voted for your Elector and your Electors failed you. Go get educated.
     
  7. AK_Creative

    AK_Creative Member

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    This has to be the dumbest idea I've seen on this forum.
     
  8. PapaGeek

    PapaGeek Member

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    Popular vote is not a horrible idea, but the only way that can occur is if the voting laws in all 50 states were identical. Right now California has a motor voter law that registers you to vote when you get a driver’s license and they encourage illegals to get licenses. Is it a good idea for everyone in a community to have a vote on how that community is run, definitely not a bad idea, but how do you then weed out the citizen vs non-citizen votes for president if each vote counted the same across the country?

    The US is a Republic, not a democracy. It is made up of 50 separate democracies who send representatives to the central government. People do not vote, their representatives do and each of the 50 states can set up their own rules on how they run their elections, States Rights. The number of representatives from each state is determined by the number of US citizens in each state, not the overall population.

    The only way to have popular vote count is to have identical country wide laws on voter registration, early voting, absentee voting, voter ID at the polling places, etc. Every time we talk about things like voter ID, one state says great and another says no way. Right now it does not matter because how easy it is to vote in a state has no bearing at all on how many votes that state gets in the House, or the electors it sends to vote for president.

    Remember the recounts in Florida a few years back? Imagine if someone wins the election by 0.001% of the popular vote and we are forced into a recount in every polling place in every state. As we have it now, when the electoral college is close and one state with a narrow margin could swing the final result, we only have to examine that one state, not every state.
     
  9. Steady Pie

    Steady Pie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You cannot abolish something which has no legal basis. The popular vote doesn't not exist. It has as much constitutional clout as the potato vote.
     
  10. Texas Republican

    Texas Republican Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The vote should be limited to taxpayers. If you're not paying income taxes, you should have no say in how taxes are spent.
     
  11. DarkDaimon

    DarkDaimon Well-Known Member

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    You would think so, but then this comes along:

    Isn't it amazing how the Republicans claim to be for the people, but then they try to find ways to reduce the power of the people through things like voter id, and this crap.
     
  12. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

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    You can't really abolish the popular vote, as all anyone needs is a calculator, or the patience to add the numbers by hand.
     
  13. katsung47

    katsung47 Banned

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    It doesn't matter with electoral or popular vote. It depends on the people who counter the ballots. Unless there is transparent voting system, no fair voting you will see.
     
  14. fifthofnovember

    fifthofnovember Well-Known Member

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    Well, it's an interesting idea, but it does nothing to address the problems of democracy referred to in the article:

    So how are randomly selected voters going to be any different?
     
  15. Penrod

    Penrod Well-Known Member

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    Isnt it funny the founders felt the same way ?

    Back then in most states you had to be a landowner to vote hence a taxpayer

    Why do you think they set up the EC in the first place. They despised direct democracy and mob majority rule.
     
  16. Penrod

    Penrod Well-Known Member

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    Ralph Nader was just on with Trish Regan saying the EC is on the way out and that NY, Cal and Mass have made a pact to give all their votes to whoever wins the popular vote. She pretty much destroyed his position being she is from NH .
     
  17. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

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    When I see their state legislatures actually pass that into law; I'll take it seriously.
    They're waiting for enough states to sign on to the pact so they do not run the risk of giving their electors to a GOP candidate.
     
  18. Penrod

    Penrod Well-Known Member

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    Well in those states all the votes go to the dem anyway so it doesn't matter that much
     
  19. Thehumankind

    Thehumankind Well-Known Member

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    In terms of winning of course popular vote would never matter, but a good indication of the extent of trust and supports.
     
  20. shades

    shades Active Member

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    One would think if you applied the simple majority rules to the election of President, you would therefor have to lend that idea to all things considered nationally impactful

    So there would be no Obamacare, no gay marriage, and a host of other things Dems shoved through by way of the "rules" on the books rather than majority rule
     
  21. Greataxe

    Greataxe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The popular vote is just a statistic.
     
  22. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

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    Not even that - it's trivia.
     
  23. Conviction

    Conviction Well-Known Member

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    I support the Republic.
     

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