The Folly of Atheism, part 2

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by usfan, Feb 18, 2017.

  1. usfan

    usfan Banned

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    The previous thread seemed to have some interest for a few philosophical types, & since it has been closed due to post limit, I thought it only proper to start up another, for the many atheists, former atheists, & perhaps future atheists who might enjoy pondering the mysteries of the universe together. :D And, of course, theists, agnostics, etc, are welcome to chime in with their perceptions as well.

    Now, i know that atheism is often portrayed as a dour, grumpy philosophy, devoid of hope, meaning, & humor. But i find issue with that caricature, & see no reason why we cannot be good natured in our examination of one of the fastest growing beliefs in the world.

    My premise in the previous thread was that there is some folly in atheism. I did explain that it is a normal, human kind of folly, that is common to man. I listed a few points of folly, will summarize them, here, & add some new ones.

    • Redefine Science. Among many atheists, especially the militant ones, a common theme is, 'Theists are religious, atheists follow science'. This is fundamentally flawed on many levels. 1. Science is indifferent to worldviews, & only provides facts or evidence for a belief system. 2. There are NO scientific facts or evidence that compels an atheistic worldview. Naturalism is a belief, & is not a proven concept, scientifically. It is not even a good theory of origins, but is filled with assumptions, flaws, & logical fallacies.
    • Presumption of Omniscience. This is another logical flaw in the Atheistic worldview. When the atheist declares, 'There is no God', he is asserting that he knows all the mysteries in the universe, inhabits infinity & eternity, & has all knowledge. It is a statement of divine omniscience. But this is absurd. How can any human being claim to have all knowledge about everything, & categorically declare anything like this?
    • Indoctrination. Naturalism has become the state religion. It is promoted in national parks, public media shows, entertainment, schools, universities, & driven into impressionable children from infancy. Movies are filled with sci-fi imaginings of evolution. The media, entertainers, celebrities, govt leaders... everyone of influence & status present a unified, constant drumbeat of naturalistic origins. Even if it is blended with some nostalgic references to a deity, there is NEVER any question of the science presented, the narrative, or the ideology.
    • Orwellian Newspeak. This is the irrational logophobia that seems to be common with many atheists. It takes several forms, but it's roots are in definitional dodges, or redefined terms. Many will not use the word, 'belief' to describe their world view, as it implies a mere opinion, rather than Absolute Fact. But this ignores reality. Any of the beliefs about the nature of the universe, or the supernatural (or not) are ALL BELIEFS. Masking that in techno babble or newspeak changes nothing.
    • All or Nothing. This is the fallacy that if you believe in ONE supernatural entity or event, you must believe in all of them. And, if you doubt the existence of fairies, for example, you must doubt the existence of all supernatural entities. This is flawed on the surface, as there are many things we differentiate between in our worldviews, distinguishing valid beliefs from those we disbelieve.
    • Rabid Dogmatism. This is the attempt to put more weight on a belief by extreme insistence, or dogmatism about the belief. By insisting that MY VIEW is Absolute Truth, and not merely a belief, like other's have, MY BELIEF has more substance. But this is not 'strong', or 'gnostic' belief, just irrational dogmatism. This is very common with all philosophical beliefs & opinions.
    I'm sure there are more, & as i said in the last thread, these can also apply to theists, or any dogmatic view of the universe. But for this exercise, we are giving atheism our full attention, to see how it holds up under skeptical scrutiny. I do not see ANY empirical evidence, for any of the popular belief systems. They are ALL beliefs, that we have arrived at via multiple influences in our lives. I will also list the Basic Beliefs, for any who might be interested. Here is my summary:

    1. 'I believe in god & the supernatural'
    2. 'I DON'T believe in god or the supernatural'
    3. 'I don't know'.
    4. 'The question is absurd, nothing is knowable, or i don't like the options'.
    The common labels for these belief statements, in the english language, are as follows:

    1. Theism
    2. Atheism
    3. Agnosticism
    4. Absurdism
    I cannot see any other basic beliefs about the nature of the universe, & i hesitate to include 'agnosticism', since it is merely a declaration of ignorance, or no opinion. But, since it is a popular label, i have included it. Absurdism is less common, & is a throwback to the greek skeptics, who declared all knowledge, 'unknowable'. It also includes those who put the Answer at '42', or some other absurdist reply.

    Anyway, i'm sure we can find many interesting points & subpoints in this discussion, & i hope it can be a platform for expressing reason & sound arguments for our views. Empiricism is sorely lacking in this subject, so reason & philosophy will have to do.
     
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  2. William Rea

    William Rea Well-Known Member

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    Agnosticism is by definition absurdism. For an agnostic to remain consistent in philosophy they have to declare all knowledge to be unknowable.
     
  3. usfan

    usfan Banned

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    How about we use your 'strong vs weak', or 'gnostic vs agnostic' qualifiers, for the others, as well? IOW, a 'strong' agnostic would be one who declared agnosticism to be Absolute.. that 'Nobody can know'. Just like the 'strong' atheists who declares 'there is no god, that is a fact!' Or, the 'strong' theist who declares, 'I KNOW God to be like such & such!'

    A pure agnostic, or 'weak', if you prefer, is merely declaring ignorance, not anything positive about the nature of the universe. 'I don't know', is merely a statement of ignorance. The statement becomes 'strong' if it includes the qualifier, 'And nobody else does, either!'

    I see a major difference between the agnostic & the absurdist, which i listed as 2 different beliefs. The agnostic is claiming ignorance, with either 'strong' or 'weak' qualifiers. The absurdist is somewhat similar to the 'strong' agnostic, by declaring all knowledge to be unknowable, but the logical flaw in that is hard to miss.

    "Nothing can be known, not even this". Carneades (c. 214 - 129 B.C.)

    The absurdist view is like being stuck in a house of mirrors.. with nothing real, only reflections & distortions of perceptions. It is, IMO, the most irrational of the listed belief systems, but it is a common belief, so it should be included.
     
  4. ecco

    ecco Well-Known Member

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    If all you are going to do is rehash the last 1000 posts...:deadhorse:
     
  5. Johnny Brady

    Johnny Brady New Member

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    No sh*t!
     
  6. usfan

    usfan Banned

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    I thought maybe you & Frank could continue your word definition debates! :)

    It must have been fun for you, since you did it for so long. Are you saying now, that you are bored with the subject of atheism? You have no interest in discussing any of the nuances of atheism any more?
     
  7. Johnny Brady

    Johnny Brady New Member

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    Thread:The Folly of Atheism
    ---------------------------------------

    Their biggest "folly" is that they make such outrageous over-the-top statements! A classic example are 3 who recently said in another thread that the gospel-writers were deliberate liars!
     
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  8. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    Post is nothing but theist arrogance.....most of what was posted can apply to believers as well such as :

    ""When the atheist declares, 'There is no God', he is asserting that he knows all the mysteries in the universe, inhabits infinity & eternity, & has all knowledge. """

    but OP can't see that "When the believer declares, 'There is God', he is asserting that he knows all the mysteries in the universe, inhabits infinity & eternity, & has all knowledge""


    ...and the ignorance continues with the folly of the assumption that all atheists think exactly alike...
     
  9. Daniel Light

    Daniel Light Well-Known Member

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    Know that you do not know ...

    - Socrates
     
  10. usfan

    usfan Banned

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    ... yawn...

    didn't read the OP, i see. Just wanted to bash someone, to defend your jihadist beliefs?

    :D

    We do not see things as they are. We see them as we are. ~Talmud

    “To realize that you do not understand is a virtue; Not to realize that you do not understand is a defect.” ~Lao Tzu

    ..we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth. And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know. ~Paul the Apostle


    And, a more contemporary favorite!

    He who repeats what he does not understand is no better than an ass that is loaded with books. ~Kahlil Gibran
     
  11. Johnny Brady

    Johnny Brady New Member

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    Look at it another way- the believer looks at all the evidence for a God and concludes- "Of course there must be a God!"..:)
    For example-
    "To look out at this kind of creation out here and not believe in God is to me impossible, it just strengthens my faith"- John Glenn
    [​IMG]
     
  12. William Rea

    William Rea Well-Known Member

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    No, any agnostic that declares ignorance is a hypocrite if they do not acknowledge the logical extension of that position. It is an absurdist position unless they admit to special pleading for gods, just like theists do.
     
  13. William Rea

    William Rea Well-Known Member

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    I know, I'm just not a smug prick about it.
     
  14. yguy

    yguy Well-Known Member

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    That would make atheism fundamentally preposterous...

    ...and that would make it fundamentally vacuous. Which do you prefer?

    Not really, no. The question of the existence of fairies doesn't interest me, so I'm neither a fairyist nor an afairyist.

    And I know of no moral concept worthy of consideration that anyone has any rational and substantiated reason to believe proceeds from anyOne else.

    You evidently don't understand what morality is. You probably think the 10 C's were news to the Israelites before God carved them in stone, and that morality is language-based.

    I wonder if I'm the only one who notices the colossal arrogance such an offer evinces.
     
  15. usfan

    usfan Banned

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    I see any of the beliefs in the OP as opinions, with no EMPIRICAL evidence. That is not 'NO evidence', it is just not empirical. You can ask 100 theists, 'why do you believe in God', & they may give you 100 reasons, but in there, almost always, is a subjective experience with the supernatural. They encountered Something they cannot explain, & credit it to God, or some Supernatural Entity. Some become dogmatic about it, but that is just a human thing.

    OTOH, the atheist has no experience, empirical or subjective, to base his beliefs upon. It is based entirely on assumptions.

    1. All experiences with the supernatural are contrived or imagined, by every human being throughout history.
    2. My personal non-experience with the supernatural is enough for me to make a dogmatic conclusion about the universe.. i am satisfied that there is no other possibility, & my beliefs are based on omnipotent knowledge of all the mysteries in the universe.

    How can anyone make these kinds of assumptions? They go way beyond merely professing ignorance of the mysteries of the universe.. that would be agnosticism. They are making a positive claim of belief.. 'i don't believe in god or the supernatural'. How can this claim be made, with the sparse knowledge held by the individual? How can they summarily dismiss all other's experiences as delusions or contrived?

    For me, that is the main 'folly of atheism'. It is not so much a belief in nothing, or purely naturalistic cause of the universe, but the dogmatic assertion that this belief is 'settled science', or 'empirical truth'. I cannot see how a thinking, rational person can make such a claim. I should.. since i made that claim, once, but it still seems wildly irrational.
     
  16. usfan

    usfan Banned

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    I have a pretty good clue, & a very strong inclination, & i am a smug prick about it.. :D But i don't let that stop me from presenting my opinion.

    And btw, some might disagree with your self-analysis... ;)
     
  17. William Rea

    William Rea Well-Known Member

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    It is your folly that you think that the, 'I don't have enough faith to be an atheist' bs passes muster these days. That is so old it surprises me that fundamentalists still use it.
     
  18. usfan

    usfan Banned

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    I said no such thing, William. You could address the actual points i made, instead of a strawman of your own creation.

    Atheists are supposed to be logical, if nothing else. Why the logical fallacies, for a philosophical thread?
     
  19. William Rea

    William Rea Well-Known Member

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    Strange, because that comment wasn't directed at theists.
     
  20. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    What jihadists beliefs? Is that a typical Christian being insulting because they have no real answer? Yes, it is......

    - - - Updated - - -


    Shrug, so you needed someone else to speak for you...big deal......is Glenn really your spiritual leader?

    Now prove Glenn knows everything.....:)
     
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  21. William Rea

    William Rea Well-Known Member

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    It is a parody of what you said. I could have put it as, 'y'all see dem thar ath'ists, well, dem's got just teh religions too'. It's not my fault if people try to repackage tired old clichés like that in philosophical language. Fancy words doesn't make it any less transparent or funny.
     
  22. Johnny Brady

    Johnny Brady New Member

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    Glenn said-"To look out at this kind of creation out here and not believe in God is to me impossible, it just strengthens my faith"
    So which is the more logical, to say somebody created the universe, or to say it decided to create itself?..:)
     
  23. Vegas giants

    Vegas giants Banned

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    Where is the beginning of a circle? The universe has always been here
     
  24. Distraff

    Distraff Well-Known Member

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    How is not believing in God because of a lack of evidence for his existence vacuous? What else are you supposed to do if there is no evidence?

    If you are not a fairist then you don't have a belief in fairies. If you don't have a belief in fairies then you don't believe in fairies. In the same way I don't believe in God.
     
  25. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    It is not logical at all to claim Glenn's quote proves either.
     

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