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Old 04-10-2008, 03:52 PM
GovernmentCheese GovernmentCheese is offline
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Default The true imperialists show their hand

Given the evidence of the level of judicial activism promoted by liberals, we shouldn't be surprised at this -

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(CNN) -- Hamas deserves to be recognized by the international community, and despite the group's militant history, there is a chance the soon-to-be Palestinian leaders could turn away from violence, former President Jimmy Carter said Wednesday.
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Old 04-10-2008, 07:58 PM
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Default the enemy of my enemy is my friend?

look on the net for the vicious uncivilized things fatah has done for decades and reflect on Carter's suggestion that we might turn hamas around by engaging them
as you will see below, dubya has no problem arming enemies of israel ... if he thinks it will eridicate hamas. he must want to start yet another civil war
Quote:
Why Bush is Selling Arms to Fatah

By CHRISTOPHER BRAUCHLI
There's one thing George Bush knows. You don't get to be the biggest arms merchant in the world by only selling arms to friends. If that were the case the only countries to which we'd sell arms would be countries like Great Britain and Canada and they're not going to buy enough to keep us in first place. And it's not Mr. Bush's fault that he doesn't know that there is a history in the United States of selling arms to people who have ended up using the arms against the United States. After all, it's hard enough for him to keep up with what's going on right now.
If he knew history, he'd know that in the 1980s the United States sold Iran 12,000 anti-tank missiles, 235 Hawk missiles and 200 Phoenix air-to-air missiles costing more than $1 million each. He'd recall that when we thought Mr. bin Laden was our friend for trying to kick the Soviets out of Afghanistan (a country to which we are now bringing law and order in order to show the Russians how good old American know-how can get the job done) we provided him with stinger missiles. The ones bin Laden couldn't use he sold to Iran and got cash that has helped in his ongoing battle with his former arms supplier). Now Mr. Bush is arming the Palestinian organization known as Fatah.
President Mahmoud Abbas is a member of the Fatah party and the president of the Palestinian Authority. He was elected in 2005 and until 2006 Fatah controlled the Palestinian Authority. Some parts of Fatah get along with Israel-sort of. In 2006 legislative elections were held. Hamas won and took control of parliament. Fatah cabinet members resigned and were replaced by Hamas members. Hamas does not get along with Israel. It wants it removed from the face of the earth. Since the elections, relations between Fatah and Hamas have been tense and often violent. The two groups have tried unsuccessfully to form a unity government and since that failed have resorted to shooting at one another in the streets.
Mr. Bush is very concerned about the destabilizing effect a full-scale conflict between the two groups could have on the region. He fears it could turn into another Iraq. One way of dealing with the concern would be for him to initiate talks with the two groups and see if there is a way forward that would protect Israel's right to exist while at the same time eliminating the risk of civil war between Hamas and Fatah. That is impossible because the United States (and Israel for that matter) do not talk to groups that are dedicated to the destruction of Israel. Mr. Bush also doesn't talk to countries he doesn't like but that's another story. Ever creative, Mr. Bush has another plan. Sell arms.
Mr. Bush is going to pour $86 million into the coffers of Fatah. That is more than the total of all the monies the United States has given the PLO since it was formed in 1994. None of this aid would be necessary if Fatah had not lost the 2006 election. The money will help it regain what it lost at the ballot box. Mr. Bush understands that kind of thinking since he had to go the Supreme Court to become president after losing at the ballot box.
According to media reports in late December, with Israel's and the United States's approval, 2,000 AK-47s and two million bullets were transferred to Mr. Abbas's security forces, many of whom are loyal to Mr. Abbas and to Fatah. (Fatah's armed wing known as Al-Aqsa fighters are hostile to Israel and some Fatah folk have launched terrorist attacks against both the U.S and Israel but Mr. Bush hopes those people won't be given those weapons.) With $86 million it's a sure bet there will be lots more weapons heading Fatah's way. More arms is a sure fire way to bring peace to that region.
There is, of course, always the chance that the arms being sold will eventually be used against the merchant (us) or even Israel. That is because there are people loyal to Fatah who dislike Israel. Bassam Eid, head of the Palestinian Rights Monitoring Group in East Jerusalem says the Fatah faction is not a moderate movement and that the infusion of cash will "double the number of thugs" in Fatah. Dennis Roth, a Middle East advisor to two administrations said: "The $86 million reflects the basic sense in the administration that the only way to change things is through confrontation."
That is not surprising. Bullies are usually inarticulate and prefer a show of force to a show of brains, especially when not possessed of the latter. Mr. Bush is their poster child.
http://www.counterpunch.org/brauchli01252007.html
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Well, that settles it ... who cares about facts?
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Old 04-10-2008, 08:14 PM
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Is your post supposed to be of substance bubba?
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And he said unto them, Ye will surely say unto me this proverb, Physician, heal thyself: whatsoever we have heard done in Capernaum, do also here in thy country.

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Old 04-10-2008, 08:19 PM
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http://www.counterpunch.org/brauchli01252007.html
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And he said unto them, Ye will surely say unto me this proverb, Physician, heal thyself: whatsoever we have heard done in Capernaum, do also here in thy country.

And he said, Verily I say unto you, No prophet is accepted in his own country.
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Old 04-10-2008, 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by GovernmentCheese View Post
Is your post supposed to be of substance bubba?
Opposed to such profound substance as calling US liberals imperialists (I assume the irony is overwhelming to others here as well) and denying the legitimacy of a democratically elected Government because you oppose its policies and have deemed it an enemy?

I was under the impression that a states legitimacy is not determined by whether or not you are at war or are opposed to them. That it was the process involved in placing them in power and their region of control of the state that were the determining factors.
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Old 04-11-2008, 02:21 AM
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Yeah I'm not following the "true Imperialist" bit either here.
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Old 04-11-2008, 06:37 AM
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The only recognition that Hamas deserves is a long range missle recognizing the target and destroying it. This group has openly supported terrorism and promoted violence against Americans since it's inception. To recognize them as a nation would be giving justification to their cause and legitimizing it. This sounds like Cartertics at work. You can't give every maniac a soapbox to stand on.
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Old 04-11-2008, 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by <IF> Marius View Post
Opposed to such profound substance as calling US liberals imperialists (I assume the irony is overwhelming to others here as well) and denying the legitimacy of a democratically elected Government because you oppose its policies and have deemed it an enemy?
I wasn't the one crying about "hanging chads". You should have shouted those nutcases down then.

Quote:
I was under the impression that a states legitimacy is not determined by whether or not you are at war or are opposed to them. That it was the process involved in placing them in power and their region of control of the state that were the determining factors.
Jimmy Carter ain't working for the US.
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And he said unto them, Ye will surely say unto me this proverb, Physician, heal thyself: whatsoever we have heard done in Capernaum, do also here in thy country.

And he said, Verily I say unto you, No prophet is accepted in his own country.
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Old 04-11-2008, 06:13 PM
GovernmentCheese GovernmentCheese is offline
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Originally Posted by sunnyside View Post
Yeah I'm not following the "true Imperialist" bit either here.
Judicial Activism.
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And he said unto them, Ye will surely say unto me this proverb, Physician, heal thyself: whatsoever we have heard done in Capernaum, do also here in thy country.

And he said, Verily I say unto you, No prophet is accepted in his own country.
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Old 04-18-2008, 12:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Anikdote View Post
The only recognition that Hamas deserves is a long range missle recognizing the target and destroying it. This group has openly supported terrorism and promoted violence against Americans since it's inception. To recognize them as a nation would be giving justification to their cause and legitimizing it. This sounds like Cartertics at work. You can't give every maniac a soapbox to stand on.
Please explain as to what part of your argument expressed reason as to why Hamas should not be recognised as the legitimate Governing administration of Palestine.

That you oppose their ideology and methods, even going so far as to oppose it through war or foreign policy, has no bearing on whether or not they are the legitimate Government. It is a completely separate issue. What you have explained is why the United States should oppose Hamas, not deny it recognition.

Either state why Hamas is not the legitimate Government of Palestine or state why opposition to their organisation and ideologies has any judgement on whether or not they are legitimate.

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Originally Posted by GovernmentCheese View Post
I wasn't the one crying about "hanging chads". You should have shouted those nutcases down then.
I have no idea as to what you are talking about. Explain it further.

As for the implications regardless, that I “didn’t shout down those nutcases then” has nothing to do with the validity of the previous criticism against you.

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Originally Posted by GovernmentCheese View Post
Jimmy Carter ain't working for the US.
That makes absolutely no sense in response to what you’ve quoted from me. That Jimmy Carter “aint working for the US” has no bearing on status of state and governing body legitimacy around the world.
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