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Thread: Sherman Tank

  1. Default Generals, generally:

    Quote Originally Posted by alskdwq View Post
    Sherman was designed to fight infantries than tanks, and Tank Destroyers will fight any tanks appeared, just because of this ridiculous theory made by a senior general, this theory has greatly delayed the development of M26 Pershing, and IMO if M26 can be deployed in 1944, the war wouldn't take another year
    Some American generals were wicked nuts. We can get into this, if you want to.

    One Navy Captain actually invented and was allowed to fake testing, for his defective Mk.14 torpedo, which was a magnetic torpedo, which did not compensate, for the Earth's magnetic field!

    This dud would run under targets, and if it hit, directly, it wouldn't detonate. US subs got in a lot of trouble, for a good while, off the top of my head, until well into 1943 because the Navy and War Dept. let this schmuck call shots and fake fixes, to his massively defective device.

    That the Sherman was a burn-down, promoted by some M-26 delaying crook doesn't surprise me, and we can review THAT. Whoever designed and built the lousy Grant sponson design was just copying the French heavy tank tech. The only thing the French did kinda smooth was their curved armor, designed to deflect and save weight, which Americans adopted, for the M-26 and later designs.

    Of course, we are back to angular Chobham media, now. And these are kinda quick, with Land Warrior guys, on board:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stryker
    "Boys and girls, we have a CHIMPY PRESIDENT. And that's just the way it is . . ."
    -Terrible Tea-bagger Ted from Texas
    "Well, time for some eugenics discussions, if ya-all can't throw that tea, overboard, and switch, to French roast."
    - OK, I said that
    "Is this the worst, ever had to go boom-boom, you have, hmmm? Yessss . . . In the woods, you must."
    -Yoda, from JACKASS WARS I

  2. #22

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bobgnote View Post
    Of course, we are back to angular Chobham media, now. And these are kinda quick, with Land Warrior guys, on board:
    Chobham, is this any relation to CHOAM, the Combine Honnete Ober Advancer Mercantiles?

  3. #23
    australia au queensland
    Location: QLD, Australia, Southern Hemisphere, Earth, Sol System, Orion Spur, Milky Way
    Posts: 10,642

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bobgnote View Post
    Some American generals were wicked nuts. We can get into this, if you want to.

    One Navy Captain actually invented and was allowed to fake testing, for his defective Mk.14 torpedo, which was a magnetic torpedo, which did not compensate, for the Earth's magnetic field!

    This dud would run under targets, and if it hit, directly, it wouldn't detonate. US subs got in a lot of trouble, for a good while, off the top of my head, until well into 1943 because the Navy and War Dept. let this schmuck call shots and fake fixes, to his massively defective device.

    That the Sherman was a burn-down, promoted by some M-26 delaying crook doesn't surprise me, and we can review THAT. Whoever designed and built the lousy Grant sponson design was just copying the French heavy tank tech. The only thing the French did kinda smooth was their curved armor, designed to deflect and save weight, which Americans adopted, for the M-26 and later designs.

    Of course, we are back to angular Chobham media, now. And these are kinda quick, with Land Warrior guys, on board:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stryker
    Every country using magnetic torps had problems for years into WW2.

  4. Default Here's several good links:

    Quote Originally Posted by Panzerkampfwagen View Post
    Every country using magnetic torps had problems for years into WW2.
    The problem with the Mark XIV is the Bureau of Ordinance wouldn't admit the torpedo was flawed, all the way, to the end of 1943. The problems were the depth and detonator mechanisms, not the engine, which was designed, by a Commodore, who came out of retirement, to run some tests, so my first post may have been incorrect about the source of the corruption, unless the story I heard, years ago, refers to some OTHER Navy guy, who designed the magnetic detonator.

    Here's what came up, on my search, including the last link, which we can use, to get back on topic:

    http://www.historynet.com/us-torpedo...rld-war-ii.htm

    http://www.fleetsubmarine.com/torpedoes.html

    And then, there was the Mk.IV torpedo:

    The Mark-6 magnetic feature was, it turned out, based on a pair of false premises. First, that the earth's magnetic field was essentially the same everywhere and, second, that a steel-hulled ship is going to disturb that field.

    In fact, the earth's magnetic field varies considerably. An exploder that worked unfailingly off Newport could fail miserably in the Pacific. And it's a relatively simple process to degause (demagnetize) a ship's hull—something that was done routinely to warships and others going into combat areas once magnetic mines were introduced.

    The American problem was compounded by RAdm Robert English, at Pearl Harbor, and RAdm Ralph Christie, in Australia. Christie had worked on the Mark-6 exploder at Newport, and was convinced that it worked. He presumed that any problems came from poor maintenance or other user error. And it wasn't until English died in a California plane crash, and Lockwood took over at Pearl, that anyone would really listen to the commanders. Lockwood allowed the magnetic exploders to be deactivated on Pearl Harbor boats, though Christie persisted in mandating their use for a while longer.

    But there was a third part of the problem. Because the captains had been under orders to use the magnetic exploder, and had been setting their torpedoes to run the required five feet under their targets, few of them had had the opportunity to realize that that contact exploder was also defective.

    Now, time after time, a perfect shot would send a torpedo squarely into the side of a target, only to have it fail to explode. It might punch a hole in the side of a freighter, but most likely not something that couldn't be repaired at sea. And with a warship, made of thicker steel, it might do nothing more than cause a small dent.

    Curiously, bad shots, made at extreme angles, where the torpedo hit the target at an oblique angle instead of square, very often resulted in the warhead detonating and the target going down.
    Once this fix was in, Adm.Lockwood's group found out the Mk.XIV contact detonator was failing, since the Mk.XIV motor made that torpedo a lot faster. They did a fix at Pearl, made from salvaged aluminum, from Japanese planes, downed in the 12/7/41 attack.

    http://www.military.com/Content/More...file=PRtorpedo

    http://www.freewebs.com/graham7760/m...ctorpedoes.htm

    http://silentseawolvesmsw.devhub.com...failures-wwii/

    Japanese torpedoes were shizzlishious. They ran at the depth, to which they were set, they hit what they were aimed at, and they had twice the payload. Darned clever, looked the IJN.

    http://www.ww2pacific.com/torpedo.html

    http://208.84.116.223/forums/index.php?showtopic=33624

    This blog is at Tank Net:

    http://208.84.116.223/forums/

    And so, we can get back to Shermans, which were marginally better, than Grants. I bet we find out some bad guys with Grant connections were responsible, for the fixation, by US procurement, with the French 75 mm howitzer, which had been in service, for a long time, so the Grant had a sponson 75, and the Sherman had a 75, with a short barrel.

    What was worse, foregoing hundreds of kills, by US submarines, or sending Grants and Shermans, to fight Germans? Both tactics resulted, in bad debacles.

    The whole tone for this was set, by FDR, who arranged, with Gen.Marshall, to suppress intel, into Pearl, which resulted, in 2400 killed, right away, and missing battleships, in the Guadalcanal campaign, including at the Battle of Iron Bottom Sound.

    Want to go, to war, for the USA? Don't forget. Some other American has the tactics doped, so you can get dead, during some debacle. Even worse, the whole trend of American conflict is affected, by Roman and then British Imperialism, so modern profiteers can get way over.
    "Boys and girls, we have a CHIMPY PRESIDENT. And that's just the way it is . . ."
    -Terrible Tea-bagger Ted from Texas
    "Well, time for some eugenics discussions, if ya-all can't throw that tea, overboard, and switch, to French roast."
    - OK, I said that
    "Is this the worst, ever had to go boom-boom, you have, hmmm? Yessss . . . In the woods, you must."
    -Yoda, from JACKASS WARS I

  5. Default

    I don't think you understand tank tactics. The Sherman was far from perfect and its original tactical doctrine wasn't implemented very well, but it still more than got the job done. The U.S. realized the shortcomings of the Sherman very early on in the war, began to make replacements, but realized that the current Sherman was sufficient to get the job done. Patton's Army sliced the German army and took manuever warfare to the next level in France. Manuever warfare isn't about having the best tank, it's about having all levels of arms operating together in concert to get the job done. Even the best German tank was vulnerable to anti-tank guns, artillery, mines, aircraft, and infantry. More importantly, the U.S. was able to overcome its weaknesses because it had the best logistic capabilties of any military in the war. While the Germans were dragging their artillery and equipment by horse and foot, the U.S. was flying by in a ridiculous number of trucks.
    I have no joy in strife,
    Peace is my great desire;
    Yet God forbid I lose my life
    Through fear to face the fire. -Henry Van Dyke

  6. #26

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bobgnote View Post
    The whole tone for this was set, by FDR, who arranged, with Gen.Marshall, to suppress intel, into Pearl, which resulted, in 2400 killed, right away, and missing battleships, in the Guadalcanal campaign, including at the Battle of Iron Bottom Sound.
    And please give us this hard Intel that FDR had. And please, do not bring up the Sorge Reports. This is all old news, and did not really give any information at all. The Sorge reports basically said nothing but "The Empire of Japan intends to go to war against the US and UK forces by the end of the year". And that was it.

    And it was not like nothing was done. Once FDR learned about this, our bases in the Pacific were quietly upgraded for several months. All Philippino Forces were activated and put on alert. Four Star General Douglas MacArthur was recalled from retirement, and placed in command of all Pacific Forces. And large numbers of troups and supplies were rushed to the Philippines. Shore Defense and Air Defense Battalions were rushed in, as well as 3 tank battalions, a mechanized battalion, 2 battallions of engineers, and 2 divisions of Infantry. Plus the 4th Marine Regiment was pulled out of China and sent directly to the Philippines, rather then being recalled home. And on 8 December there were an additional 4 regiments of artillery enroute when the war started.

    The Philippines come 8 December had over four times the forces and equipment then it had in 1 July 1941. Ordinance depots were 4 times larger, and there was an entire new petrol depot, with over 1,000,000 gallons of fuel. And there was over 1 million tons of equipment waiting on the docks for transportation when the war started.

    And the air forces on the island were no joke either. 3 B-10s, 35 B-17s, 18 B-18s, 91 P-40s, 26 P-35s, 12 P-26s, 8 A-27s, and 11 O-52s. Add to this the various cargo and training aircraft, and that is a sizeable air presence. Plus the 60 aircraft of the Philippine Air Corps, and more was enroute, including flights of an additional 34 B-17s and 91 P-40s.

    But do not make the mistake of thinking that the warnings were ignored. Once word arrived of the warning, the Philippines jumped from around 22,000 forces in total, to a force of around 130,000.

    And the naval build-up was no joke either. Going from essentially a Coast Guard, by the time of the invasion the Naval forces numbered a heavy cruiser, a light cruiser, and 13 destroyers. In addition, there were 23 submarinesm 6 PT boats, 5 gunboats, and a schooner. The majority of them arriving during or after August 1941.

    Sorry, but that is a gigantic build-up of forces. So please, give us this intelligence that was not reacted to.

  7. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by IgnoranceisBliss View Post
    I don't think you understand tank tactics. The Sherman was far from perfect and its original tactical doctrine wasn't implemented very well, but it still more than got the job done. The U.S. realized the shortcomings of the Sherman very early on in the war, began to make replacements, but realized that the current Sherman was sufficient to get the job done. Patton's Army sliced the German army and took manuever warfare to the next level in France. Manuever warfare isn't about having the best tank, it's about having all levels of arms operating together in concert to get the job done. Even the best German tank was vulnerable to anti-tank guns, artillery, mines, aircraft, and infantry. More importantly, the U.S. was able to overcome its weaknesses because it had the best logistic capabilties of any military in the war. While the Germans were dragging their artillery and equipment by horse and foot, the U.S. was flying by in a ridiculous number of trucks.
    The only reason the Sherman was good enough was because of combined arms- and in airpower in particular.

    Look- the Sherman was 'good enough'- at the beginning in North Africa- but there really is no excuse why the Brits could upgrade their Shermans to a 76 mm Firefly while we in the U.S. stayed with the underpowered 75. There is no excuse why no Pershing or Pershing equivelent wasn't available by the time of the Normandy invasions.

    We managed to move from P40's and Wildcats to P51's and Hellcats and Corsairs in the air, while still using the same tank we started with.
    The real harm is to our children. As long as we remain suspicious of the wrong people, predators will continue to have free reign to abuse innocent children. If they remain free from scrutiny because everyone else is focusing on gays and lesbians, more young lives will continue to be shattered and more parents will suffer the agonizing heartache of learning that they trusted someone who destroyed their child’s future.

  8. #28

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SFJEFF View Post
    We managed to move from P40's and Wildcats to P51's and Hellcats and Corsairs in the air, while still using the same tank we started with.
    True, but also consider the costs and numbers involved.

    P-40, 14,000, $45k
    P-51, 15,000, $51k (and development for this started in 1940)

    Sherman Tank, 50,000, $48k

    So yea, the costs were pretty similar, but the numbers were far different. And there were far more tanks on the battelfield then there were aircraft. And these aircraft normally had a crew of 1, +2-3 groundcrew. 1 officer, 2-3 enlisted. The tank however had a crew of 5 to actually run the thing in the first place (commander, gunner, loader, 2 drivers). Revamping a pilot training program is a lot easier then an entire tank crew program. And if you look at Germany, that ended up being one of their largest problems during the war.

    Every year almost they had new tanks hitting the battlefield. And it takes a while for the crews to become proficient in their use. New tanks, new weapons, new strategies, if you are constantly making your crews new learn equipment instead of becoming masters of a single one, efficiency suffers.

    And remember, the Sherman was a medium tank. It was not a heavy tank, nor was it a tank destroyer. It's main role was to support the infantry, not to go rushing off to destroy other tanks. It could do that, but it was much more valuable in it's intended role, to support the Infantry as a kind of rolling pillbox and artillery unit.

  9. Default Hit SEARCH:

    Quote Originally Posted by Mushroom View Post
    And please give us this hard Intel that FDR had.

    And it was not like nothing was done. Once FDR learned about this, our bases in the Pacific were quietly upgraded for several months. All Philippino Forces were activated and put on alert. Four Star General Douglas MacArthur was recalled from retirement, and placed in command of all Pacific Forces. And large numbers of troups and supplies were rushed to the Philippines. Shore Defense and Air Defense Battalions were rushed in, as well as 3 tank battalions, a mechanized battalion, 2 battallions of engineers, and 2 divisions of Infantry. Plus the 4th Marine Regiment was pulled out of China and sent directly to the Philippines, rather then being recalled home. And on 8 December there were an additional 4 regiments of artillery enroute when the war started.

    The Philippines come 8 December had over four times the forces and equipment then it had in 1 July 1941. Ordinance depots were 4 times larger, and there was an entire new petrol depot, with over 1,000,000 gallons of fuel. And there was over 1 million tons of equipment waiting on the docks for transportation when the war started.

    And the air forces on the island were no joke either. 3 B-10s, 35 B-17s, 18 B-18s, 91 P-40s, 26 P-35s, 12 P-26s, 8 A-27s, and 11 O-52s. Add to this the various cargo and training aircraft, and that is a sizeable air presence. Plus the 60 aircraft of the Philippine Air Corps, and more was enroute, including flights of an additional 34 B-17s and 91 P-40s.

    But do not make the mistake of thinking that the warnings were ignored. Once word arrived of the warning, the Philippines jumped from around 22,000 forces in total, to a force of around 130,000.

    And the naval build-up was no joke either. Going from essentially a Coast Guard, by the time of the invasion the Naval forces numbered a heavy cruiser, a light cruiser, and 13 destroyers. In addition, there were 23 submarinesm 6 PT boats, 5 gunboats, and a schooner. The majority of them arriving during or after August 1941.

    Sorry, but that is a gigantic build-up of forces. So please, give us this intelligence that was not reacted to.
    FDR moved the Pacific Fleet to Pearl, to bait the Japanese. He arranged, with WestPac Gen.Geo.Marshall, to suppress ALL intel, including British messages, from Asia and London, but also, former Naval officer Robert Stinnett did a FOIA on the Navy, which coughed up all the material, for Stinnett's book, DAY OF DECEIT.

    FDR was so effective, all decoded Navy messages were suppressed, when the IJN was on the way. The Ward shot a mini-sub, and radar contact, phoned in was suppressed.

    2400 dead, lots of wounded, and no old dreadnaughts, for the Battle of Iron Bottom Sound.

    Next! FDR didn't even have polio. His legs withered, from alcoholism.
    "Boys and girls, we have a CHIMPY PRESIDENT. And that's just the way it is . . ."
    -Terrible Tea-bagger Ted from Texas
    "Well, time for some eugenics discussions, if ya-all can't throw that tea, overboard, and switch, to French roast."
    - OK, I said that
    "Is this the worst, ever had to go boom-boom, you have, hmmm? Yessss . . . In the woods, you must."
    -Yoda, from JACKASS WARS I

  10. Default What?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mushroom View Post
    And remember, the Sherman was a medium tank. It was not a heavy tank, nor was it a tank destroyer. It's main role was to support the infantry, not to go rushing off to destroy other tanks. It could do that, but it was much more valuable in it's intended role, to support the Infantry as a kind of rolling pillbox and artillery unit.
    It's main job was to get whacked, by any ordinance the Germans could field, so the air cover could see something burning, get down, and whack any kraut-dogs still lingering.

    Panzerfaust, panzerschreck, panzers, whatever shot the nuts off high-profile, under-armored, under-gunned Shermans.

    If Hitler wasn't trying to lose the war, by ignoring Palestine, to let Rommel get pincered, but rather, Hitler ordered an invasion of the Soviet Union, the Americans could have been even more shot up.

    A lot of Brits and Canadians died, in Shermans, hence "Tommy-cookers."

    Junk is junk is junk. SS, DD.
    Last edited by bobgnote; Aug 28 2012 at 06:02 PM.
    "Boys and girls, we have a CHIMPY PRESIDENT. And that's just the way it is . . ."
    -Terrible Tea-bagger Ted from Texas
    "Well, time for some eugenics discussions, if ya-all can't throw that tea, overboard, and switch, to French roast."
    - OK, I said that
    "Is this the worst, ever had to go boom-boom, you have, hmmm? Yessss . . . In the woods, you must."
    -Yoda, from JACKASS WARS I

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