Thread: Greece Election

Originally Posted by alexa

I never said it was. It was one isolated incident. However I would suggest you do not suggest I was lying because I was not. Even with him I would agree it was more a show. He knew the others would come and nothing would come of it. My friend though was a bit scared.

Probably your friend met a victim of the operation red sheepskin , bad luck .

Originally Posted by mutmekep

Probably your friend met a victim of the operation red sheepskin , bad luck .

No, she just met a fed up grumpy farm worker. I was not in any way trying to suggest Greeks in the 70's were xenophobic. However whenever we met someone new they always asked where we came from. For me, it would be a friendly face and 'Ah, Scotia, good!' but there was always hostility to anyone who said they were American. Sorry but that is just how it was. That did not mean that they would not then bring the ouzo and chat but it was perfectly clear they did not immediately like 'Americans' as they did not like America though they usually were perfectly capable of getting to know individual Americans and liking them. That is how it was. Nowadays I am sure people would be much more sophisticated and please note I am not saying they were horrible to individual Americans, just that there was hostility towards hearing someone was American. I will take more care in the future and not mention my friends incident with the scythe for fear of giving the wrong impression. I liked the Greeks I met and found them very hospitable people to both myself and Americans who were with me. Let's leave this now

Originally Posted by mutmekep

Greece receives immigrants equal with 1% of our population every year for more than 10 years , 90% of the illegals enter Europe through Greece and because of Lisbon 2 treaty there is nowhere to go , we simply can not cope with their numbers .

Yes, we had a documentary on the illegals trying to travel through Greece. Looked like London in rush hour. I completely accept that this is an enormous problem for you and I would say one which ought to be being met by the EU collectively. I don't know the answer to that but it is certainly something which Greece cannot be expect to deal with on her own. The EU and possibly even the UN maybe need to collectively get involved in sorting this out.

Originally Posted by mutmekep

The nazis increase their voting pool by activism they are out in the streets helping people , of course they are not the only ones since anarchists are on it as well but GD participates in the elections . Nazis also got votes from ND ( liberals going back where they belong ).

Greeks deeply hate USA , this is true but it does not extent to personal level and it is not in our culture to go after people with scythes ...i doubt there are any scythes around too .

There is no historical rivalry between Jews and Greeks , if you exclude the nazis very few are considering "zionism" existence true but Greeks are very pro-Palestinian , i had Arafat's photo in my room as a teenager ....

I don't know if you have read the complete program of SYRIZA , they are a socialist party and a very true one . Problem is that Greeks have been showered with propaganda for the last 10 years so it is very hard to say "either we remain in EU and pay or stop paying and get out" and expect to winning any vote . If you ask a random guy searching in the trash can for food "do you think that we should exit Eurozone?" 9/10 times the reply is " NO this will be a financial disaster". SYRIZA played it very well while KKE just repeated what they say since 1981 ( not that they care earning more votes ) .

The biggest problem right now is that people don't see the future getting any better , we had 4 new suicides after the elections and the week is not over , soon things will go to open revolt because people will have nothing to lose .

Most of what you said goes with what I have gathered about Greece. I have tried to find out what would happen if Greece went into default but mostly all I get is people speaking about how it would effect other countries. It is difficult for me to think anything would be much worse than how Greece is now and where she is heading - which looks even worse. Iceland went into default and seems to be doing quite well but was not part of the Euro. The problem seems to be that for some time no one would loan to you but if you became a credible place to loan to, then of course they are going to. I have also seen the suggestion of leaving the zone but staying in the EU and that seems like the best option at the moment – leaving you space to decide what is best including as things develop – but I am no economist.

The economical difficulties at the moment effect everyone but not everyone is wanting the same results. Regulation maybe what most ordinary people want but not for those making big money quick. We seem to have got into a situation where our politicians are not serving us but rather serving financial interests. Hence a poor situation for democracy. I have been reading this paper for the past few days. It makes suggestions on things which need to be done to regulate banking which is the main problem and along with that is the need for proper democracy. While political leaders are being funded by the rulers of finance all of us face the possibility of a future which Greece is facing now. We need to gain knowledge and be able to confront and the EU most certainly needs in the future if it is to survive to become much more democratic.

According to this paper at the moment politicians cannot solve the problem.

Here's the paper. If you have a few hours give it a read.

http://www.cresc.ac.uk/sites/default...SC%20WP110.pdf

Originally Posted by alexa

No, she just met a fed up grumpy farm worker. I was not in any way trying to suggest Greeks in the 70's were xenophobic. However whenever we met someone new they always asked where we came from. For me, it would be a friendly face and 'Ah, Scotia, good!' but there was always hostility to anyone who said they were American. Sorry but that is just how it was. That did not mean that they would not then bring the ouzo and chat but it was perfectly clear they did not immediately like 'Americans' as they did not like America though they usually were perfectly capable of getting to know individual Americans and liking them. That is how it was. Nowadays I am sure people would be much more sophisticated and please note I am not saying they were horrible to individual Americans, just that there was hostility towards hearing someone was American. I will take more care in the future and not mention my friends incident with the scythe for fear of giving the wrong impression. I liked the Greeks I met and found them very hospitable people to both myself and Americans who were with me. Let's leave this now

People were not xenophobic back in the 70's , they are now .

Originally Posted by alexa

Yes, we had a documentary on the illegals trying to travel through Greece. Looked like London in rush hour. I completely accept that this is an enormous problem for you and I would say one which ought to be being met by the EU collectively. I don't know the answer to that but it is certainly something which Greece cannot be expect to deal with on her own. The EU and possibly even the UN maybe need to collectively get involved in sorting this out.

I don't think this can be shorted out we are talking about tens of thousands of people every year , very desperate that loot their way into a country in despair. Detention camps are a disgrace to the human kind , people are left to die of strange diseases and we don't have the money to do better . Best trolling solution is to immediately give them citizenship and passports so they can pass to western Europe as regular EU citizens

Originally Posted by alexa

Most of what you said goes with what I have gathered about Greece. I have tried to find out what would happen if Greece went into default but mostly all I get is people speaking about how it would effect other countries. It is difficult for me to think anything would be much worse than how Greece is now and where she is heading - which looks even worse. Iceland went into default and seems to be doing quite well but was not part of the Euro. The problem seems to be that for some time no one would loan to you but if you became a credible place to loan to, then of course they are going to. I have also seen the suggestion of leaving the zone but staying in the EU and that seems like the best option at the moment – leaving you space to decide what is best including as things develop – but I am no economist.

The economical difficulties at the moment effect everyone but not everyone is wanting the same results. Regulation maybe what most ordinary people want but not for those making big money quick. We seem to have got into a situation where our politicians are not serving us but rather serving financial interests. Hence a poor situation for democracy. I have been reading this paper for the past few days. It makes suggestions on things which need to be done to regulate banking which is the main problem and along with that is the need for proper democracy. While political leaders are being funded by the rulers of finance all of us face the possibility of a future which Greece is facing now. We need to gain knowledge and be able to confront and the EU most certainly needs in the future if it is to survive to become much more democratic.

Nobody knows what will follow since it depends on many variables like for example who will be in power , if it is a moderate we can look in an Argentina type of bankruptcy if it is a radical our goal is to write off all the debt , nationalise everything including banks and so on .
Our national bank is owned by the Rothschilds and so are the gold mines , regulation or not isn't an issue .
No it can not be any worst , the elders are telling me this is exactly how situation was after the civil war (1945) .
Eurozone means one thing : you can only borrow from the loan sharks and it doesn't matter if you are cooking the books like the Greeks or run a budget surplus like the Spanish sooner or later you will get robbed .
We don't need to get more loans , there are lots of offers to lease ports to the Chinese or receive oil for exchange of parking for the Russian fleet or even more simple tax the church ( the church owns half the country ) , priests are already stating that we should keep following the bail out deal

Originally Posted by alexa

According to this paper at the moment politicians cannot solve the problem.

Here's the paper. If you have a few hours give it a read.

http://www.cresc.ac.uk/sites/default...SC%20WP110.pdf

Thank you i will read it in the weekend

For what I've read, there is no possibility to form government. Good news. Because SYRIZA in the next elections will be the force more voted.

Also the Nazis will lose votes in this secound round.

It is time for Greece for a real change in policies, and let's see what's going on, then.

Originally Posted by kilgram

For what I've read, there is no possibility to form government. Good news. Because SYRIZA in the next elections will be the force more voted.

Also the Nazis will lose votes in this secound round.

It is time for Greece for a real change in policies, and let's see what's going on, then.

If Syriza really takes power and forms goverment.... It's going to be interresting! Will they really default as promised? I guess they have to, or all their talk will be BS. But then what? If they default, no one will loan them any money for a long time, maybe a generation. What are Syriza going to do then? Cut the budget down to size? They can't do that, they are a lefty party. Print up more Euros? They will get kicked out of the Euro. Make their own currency, the drachma? And then print that like crazy? That won't work either. No one outside Greece will accept those phoney money. Even the greeks themselves will keep their savings and pensions in Euros or maybe dollars. Maybe letting Syriza get to power is the worst thing you could do to them!

There is only one way out of this for Greece and that is for someone to drop a pair and cut the budgets. Stop reading the polls, ignore the protesters and do what is best for the country. The budgets will be cut in one of two ways: By political means or the hard way when the treasurery is empty.

Originally Posted by The Great Dane

If Syriza really takes power and forms goverment.... It's going to be interresting! Will they really default as promised? I guess they have to, or all their talk will be BS. But then what? If they default, no one will loan them any money for a long time, maybe a generation. What are Syriza going to do then? Cut the budget down to size? They can't do that, they are a lefty party. Print up more Euros? They will get kicked out of the Euro. Make their own currency, the drachma? And then print that like crazy? That won't work either. No one outside Greece will accept those phoney money. Even the greeks themselves will keep their savings and pensions in Euros or maybe dollars. Maybe letting Syriza get to power is the worst thing you could do to them!

There is only one way out of this for Greece and that is for someone to drop a pair and cut the budgets. Stop reading the polls, ignore the protesters and do what is best for the country. The budgets will be cut in one of two ways: By political means or the hard way when the treasurery is empty.

I don't know what will happen if they choose to go by the drachma but I know that most country's would find this caused uproar

'If Britain were Greece' http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17202274

the thing I don't understand is how they are ever going to pay any debt back when I hear 3 in 4 shops are already closed. Without investment in jobs in some way, where is the way out for Greece..or anyone?

Also I think they would stand a better chance of getting money back if they weren't charged such high interest.

Greecebonds304x171.gif
see proper size here http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-13798000

I do know that higher interest is always charged to those who might default but it seems to me that higher interest also causes default. Greece gets a loan and 3/4 immediately has to be given away in paying back another loan???

Basically this seems to be sending Greece back to the stone age and with no arrow pointing to a way out or end in sight. That I think is what makes people feel hopeless. Very easy to say, sitting in your safe job.

There are people who worked all their life and did pay taxes and now have had their pensions cut so they can hardly eat and yes, of course you are right, those with money will have moved it out. Another problem with today's lifestyle. You need also to remember that it is usually in the interests of everyone that one group of people are not allowed to fail. This always leads to trouble.

So, if even an end was shown. If even a way out was there. If even something was being put in that they could work for maybe it would be possible...but just getting poorer, no jobs today or tomorrow, how do you expect people to take this lying down? I think Syriza has said it wants to renegotiate the loan rather than necessarily defaulting. Maybe a way can be found to get people working again and a way can be found so that the children are still educated so that they will be able to provide for Greece in the future, and a way will be found so that those who worked all their lives can have enough money to eat and keep warm at the end. Sure make them pay but maybe at the moment without interest and how do you ever get any growth without investment. It is a genuine question. How are they supposed to get out of austerity or when you say they should 'drop a pair' are you meaning, they should accept being paupers for the next fifty or a hundred years? Of course people fear if Greece does this so may Portugal and Spain and even Ireland then the cards start falling for us all because of the interconnections of our loans. We're all just turning into the USofA. Food kitchens and the like. That seems to be the political move but the way out? No one seems to know it and that is what imo we should all be looking for. Then maybe Greece could bare it for the time being.

Originally Posted by The Great Dane

If Syriza really takes power and forms goverment.... It's going to be interresting! Will they really default as promised? I guess they have to, or all their talk will be BS. But then what? If they default, no one will loan them any money for a long time, maybe a generation. What are Syriza going to do then? Cut the budget down to size? They can't do that, they are a lefty party. Print up more Euros? They will get kicked out of the Euro. Make their own currency, the drachma? And then print that like crazy? That won't work either. No one outside Greece will accept those phoney money. Even the greeks themselves will keep their savings and pensions in Euros or maybe dollars. Maybe letting Syriza get to power is the worst thing you could do to them!

There is only one way out of this for Greece and that is for someone to drop a pair and cut the budgets. Stop reading the polls, ignore the protesters and do what is best for the country. The budgets will be cut in one of two ways: By political means or the hard way when the treasurery is empty.

Could a European tell me (an American) how Greece could be expelled from the Eurozone if She wouldn't agree to leave? Who makes the decision? Is it the European parliment? If so can members from countries not in the Eurozone (such as the UK) vote on the question? Could members from Greece vote? Is it a board of directors of a central bank? If so who is on it? How many votes would be required? Could another nation (Germany for example) sue in some European Union court to get an order expelling Greece? If so in what court and by what procedure? A comment from a Greek in another story stated the other 16 members of the Eurozone could expell Greece. This does seem like the most logical way it could be done. The comment implied that a unanimous decision would be required, is that right? If a unanimous vote isn't required what vote is required? I can think of 5 countries which might vote no: France (because of the new President), Spain, Italy, Portugal, and Ireland (because they fear they could be the next to be expelled and don't want to set the precident). Are there any other nations that might vote no? Two nations (Greece and Portugal for example) could agree that each would oppose the other's expulsion. This would prevent a unanimous vote. Does any rule exist against such an agreement? Would such an agreement be likely? A majority or 2/3 vote of the other countries could quite likely be obtained but unanimous would be very hard. Does Greece have any appeal right if She doesn't agree with the decision? If so to what court or body?

Originally Posted by Rollo1066

Could a European tell me (an American) how Greece could be expelled from the Eurozone if She wouldn't agree to leave? Who makes the decision? Is it the European parliment? If so can members from countries not in the Eurozone (such as the UK) vote on the question? Could members from Greece vote? Is it a board of directors of a central bank? If so who is on it? How many votes would be required? Could another nation (Germany for example) sue in some European Union court to get an order expelling Greece? If so in what court and by what procedure? A comment from a Greek in another story stated the other 16 members of the Eurozone could expell Greece. This does seem like the most logical way it could be done. The comment implied that a unanimous decision would be required, is that right? If a unanimous vote isn't required what vote is required? I can think of 5 countries which might vote no: France (because of the new President), Spain, Italy, Portugal, and Ireland (because they fear they could be the next to be expelled and don't want to set the precident). Are there any other nations that might vote no? Two nations (Greece and Portugal for example) could agree that each would oppose the other's expulsion. This would prevent a unanimous vote. Does any rule exist against such an agreement? Would such an agreement be likely? A majority or 2/3 vote of the other countries could quite likely be obtained but unanimous would be very hard. Does Greece have any appeal right if She doesn't agree with the decision? If so to what court or body?

As I understand it nobody is going to throw Greece out of the Euro or the EU. What might happen is that the 'bail out' will be stopped if Greece cannot reach an agreement and is not prepared to continue on the 'austerity' course. That would leave Greece with no alternative but herself to leave the Euro...though there are some people who suggest it may not. There also seems to be some disagreement as to whether if she leaves the Euro she also leaves the EU but likely unless she chose to leave she will stay in.

It's very much untreaded water but it seems that for leaving the Euro, no one will tell her to leave but circumstances may make it the only possibility.

If we leave Eurozone we will also have to leave the EU yet there are no mechanisms to expel anyone from the union , Germany tried to remove decision making from countries outside the "financial order pact" but they failed miserably .
I don't understand how defaulting will send the country "back to stone age" , look the exchange rate of Bulgarian Leva ...
Greece has gold mines , nationalising them + the banks and tie currency to gold can be an option .
There is no future for us in Eurozone , going back to drachma could cause a couple of years of misery but we are already there for the last three and as we say here the wet doesn't fear the rain .
From what i read in international press looks like the establishment is realising that we are no longer lazy , tax evading bastards , it is maybe me but i think they fear a domino effect , fun times !

I still don't understand what would occur if Greece refused to voluntarily leave the Eurozone but also wouldn't do what the other nation's in the Eurozone wanted Her to do. A mild example would be not implementing austerity measures or less than the other countries wanted, a severe example would be printing a trillion Euros when the other countries didn't want them to do that. At what point would Greece's action justify an involuntary expulsion from the Eurozone? According to the post above by Great Dane if they did the severe example "They would get kicked out of the Euro." My quesion is how and by who? If no provision exists to expell a nation from the Eurozone could one be established? How and by who?

I'm pretty sure expulsion from the Eurozone wouldn't expell a nation from the European Union as several nations including the UK belong to the EU but not to the Eurozone. I would suspect that expulsion from the EU would probably automatically expell a nation from the Eurozone. Does any procedure exists for the EU to expell a member? If so what is required?