Thread: Why are we (Spanish) being pushed down with this new taxation?

Originally Posted by loureed4

Why are we (Spanish) being pushed down with this new taxation?

Your government recklessly got itself into a big pile of debt, and now the country has to pay for it all.

Or maybe Spain should just default on it's debt and write into the constitution that it is not allowed to ever borrow any more money in the future.

Originally Posted by Anders Hoveland

Your government recklessly got itself into a big pile of debt, and now the country has to pay for it all.

Maybe Spain should just default on its debt, and write into its constitution that the government will never be allowed to borrow money again

Not at all, the finacial institutions the ECB and the IMF gave moeny to those they bought, corrupt politicians, and borrowed even though they didn't need to!

Simply remedy, like Iceland, give them nothing, take the bankers back to the country or origin and take them through the legal procedures.

But like Britian and America, they will not extradite the bankers, because they would also be caught in there illegal activities and be made to pay with there own money the debts of the nations concerned!

Or you can keep pointing a finger at those that had no responsibility to the corruption or the debts!

Regards
Highlander

Originally Posted by Anders Hoveland

Your government recklessly got itself into a big pile of debt, and now the country has to pay for it all.

The government got into debt, and now, the citizens have to pay the money back through taxation, fair enough, and moreover, the bankers like Rodrigo Rato (Bankia chairman) goes home with a payment of 2 million €, and like him, many other bankers go with a payment, called here in Spain "Indemnización" ("compensation" according to an online dictionary) . In my opinion, one receives a compensation from the government when you are run over by a car, or you have an important accident, and so forth, but not if you resign from your post, moreover if you resign and can be demostrated that you did something wrong, I am really puzzled.

Maybe that is why in the 1929 crash bankers commited suicide and now is working people in Greece and Spain who is commiting suicide?.

Originally Posted by highlander

Not at all, the finacial institutions the ECB and the IMF gave moeny to those they bought, corrupt politicians, and borrowed even though they didn't need to!

Simply remedy, like Iceland, give them nothing, take the bankers back to the country or origin and take them through the legal procedures.

But like Britian and America, they will not extradite the bankers, because they would also be caught in there illegal activities and be made to pay with there own money the debts of the nations concerned!

Or you can keep pointing a finger at those that had no responsibility to the corruption or the debts!

Regards
Highlander

That is very interesting, really interesting, though, since I am a newcomer when it comes to Economics, many things are beyond my understanding.

1. You mean the ECB and the IMF gave money to those they bought, carelessly, without responsability, without caring
about anything else? I didn´t understand that.

2. When you say "corrupt politician, and borrowed even though they didn´t need it" , who borrows to whom? , politicians to the ECB and the IMF? who didn´t need it? . Sorry for asking such basic question, I am trying to make sense of all this mess, this huge crisis my country and others are suffering.

3. "Iceland gave them nothing" means that Iceland gave nothing back to the IMF or the ECB? . I heard about that, about Iceland putting into jail to bankers, we, spaniards watched that in absolutely amazement.

4. Why is that Spaih, Greece and Portugal are suffering the crisis more strongly than others, and AT THE SAME TIME?. Is it because our economies were weaker? or we borrowed more?

5. Do you know, by change, to whom do we (Spanish, Portuguesse, and Greek people) owe money? to the ECB, to the IMF, to both, to Germany? Why all this mess? Did it not all begin with the sub-prime mortgages loans in the US?

6. Is Germany concerned about Spanish crisis? I mean, if Spain tears down, Is Germany and France and others in danger? Do they care about Spain really?.

I´ll read more about Iceland, because I can´t make sense when you said "They give them nothing" (to whom?)

Originally Posted by loureed4

That is very interesting, really interesting, though, since I am a newcomer when it comes to Economics, many things are beyond my understanding.

1. You mean the ECB and the IMF gave money to those they bought, carelessly, without responsability, without caring
about anything else? I didn´t understand that.

2. When you say "corrupt politician, and borrowed even though they didn´t need it" , who borrows to whom? , politicians to the ECB and the IMF? who didn´t need it? . Sorry for asking such basic question, I am trying to make sense of all this mess, this huge crisis my country and others are suffering.

3. "Iceland gave them nothing" means that Iceland gave nothing back to the IMF or the ECB? . I heard about that, about Iceland putting into jail to bankers, we, spaniards watched that in absolutely amazement.

4. Why is that Spaih, Greece and Portugal are suffering the crisis more strongly than others, and AT THE SAME TIME?. Is it because our economies were weaker? or we borrowed more?

5. Do you know, by change, to whom do we (Spanish, Portuguesse, and Greek people) owe money? to the ECB, to the IMF, to both, to Germany? Why all this mess? Did it not all begin with the sub-prime mortgages loans in the US?

6. Is Germany concerned about Spanish crisis? I mean, if Spain tears down, Is Germany and France and others in danger? Do they care about Spain really?.

I´ll read more about Iceland, because I can´t make sense when you said "They give them nothing" (to whom?)

Give the CEC and the IMF and those associated with them nothing! If you go bankrupt its you, since when does someone else acquire your debts.... ie the tax payer!
Let them sink or swim in there self regulation....or a full investigation.... and those found responsible.... to pay there just dues!
Its is only the tip of a very big ice berg!
http://www.hangthebankers.com/austra...aks-wide-open/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...alary-cut.html
Beyond criticism
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.p...t=va&aid=26690

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/us-tre...i-scheme-years

If those running the nation are unelected, its called a dictatorship!

The ECB and the IMF have put in place technocrats, dicatorship in Spain Italy and Greece.

They are owned wholly but these institutions, but all one need do... is to investigate and prosecute!

Regards
Highlander

1- EU (Germany and France mainly) and IMF (US has a key role here as far as I read) lend money to Greece, Spain, Portugal and Ireland.
2- They lend money to the banks, "too big to fail". It is supposed that when these banks receive the money, they should lend money to people, businesses, real economy, so that it could boost again, now that the banks are sound and safe, with plenty of money again.
3- By doing so (banks lending money to people), people will be capable of consuming again, of opening new businesses again, and the banks will have more profits, and the government will have more income, and the government, through this new income, will be able of paying back the loan. I mean, if credit from banks don´t flow into real economy, the country will tear apart , won´t be able to pay off the debt, and I guess the German banks want the money back, but someone in this fourm says they don´t want their money back, but these countries on their knees to buy their , our wealth.
4- They impose/enforce austerity measures which they know will make things for the countries to pay the money back. Austerity measure means less consumption = more layoffs = more businesses shut down = more unemployment = less revenues/income for the government to pay back to German and French and IMF banks.

My conclusion: Neither IMF, nor Germany of France want us to boost , otherwise they wouldn´t enforce austerity measures, would they?.

Someone said too that primary-need goods are not born with more taxation: food, books, medicine ......but, what about the gasoline?. Any single business, no matter how big or small they are, depends on the price of the gasoline because they have to transport their goods from one city to another. In my opinion that will prompt companies to rise the prices of whatever they have to transport: milk, cookies, meat, you name it.

From comment #17: "The IMF is trying to get them (Greece, Portugal...) bust". "...Bringing Spain down to their knees will make everything cheap for the sharks to grab" . I say that, in the long run, the 1% of wealthiest people can only keep on being wealthy if they are wiser and try to have a large, very large middle-class, who consumes.

From comment #19: "Read what happened anywhere IMF got involved" . What the hell does the IMF is trying to achieve?.
I quote again from #19: "Countries and people are the least of plutocary´s concerns , take for example how Spain was enforced to save Bankia...would ever Bankia lift a finger to save the people?" . I insist on saying: Wealthy people, banks, rely ultimately on the people on the bottom, on working normal people´s savings, money, to be richer and richer. Again: The more middle class, the better for the wealthy, the better for all I would say.

I have even read that Germany is interested in tearing apart the EU, and the Euro, due to these difficult circumsntances.

Other people here say that Spain spent a lot of money, and so did Greece. The credit was so easy to get (from greedy in Wall Street "sub-prime") that countries got money to boost Economy, but I am not quite sure about this.

And the guy who says that Denmark has 25% of VAT, yes, It is true, but you can´t compare a stable country like yours with Spain, and even less, now.

I mean, I have read about Sweden and Denmark having 25% of VAT, and all works well in those countries, so, in my opinion, it has nothing to do the figures of 20, 22, 25, or whatever, it is just how healthy is the economy of the country, I think.

If raising taxation is not the solution, what could we do?.

Conclusion 2: IN THE LONG RUN, A LARGE MIDDLE CLASS IS NEEDED, IN THE SHORT RUN THERE WILL BE VULTURES, COMPANIES, GREEDY BANKS WHO DON´T REALIZE THIS. If not, what is the aim of Neoliberalism? the real aim? to tear down many countries? to ruin them? what for? , the 1% of the wealthiest people, Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan, Barclays, etc, need us, they need us to consume, to make economies boost, to create a real good stander of living, they don´t realize they need a middle class?

loureed4 i guess you spent your summer reading

Now on your conclusions there are two different approaches

#1 : There is a Plan
Bringing countries down will allow faster "European integration" (aka surrendering the keys to Brussels) while kicking populations on their knees will make them more profitable to exploit.

#2: There is no Plan
It is just a quick money grab by people fewer than 1% , they just want to go away with the money and don't care for the consequences .

Giving what the polls are showing in Italy / Greece / The Netherlands European integration is becoming a distant dream for those who wish it , the class awakening and social mobilisation in European south is too negative for the idea of EU to be accepted plus if Italy leaves the Eurozone Germany will be royally screwed . This is why i am going with #2 : There is no plan.

Originally Posted by loureed4

The government got into debt, and now, the citizens have to pay the money back through taxation, fair enough, and moreover, the bankers like Rodrigo Rato (Bankia chairman) goes home with a payment of 2 million €, and like him, many other bankers go with a payment, called here in Spain "Indemnización" ("compensation" according to an online dictionary) . In my opinion, one receives a compensation from the government when you are run over by a car, or you have an important accident, and so forth, but not if you resign from your post, moreover if you resign and can be demostrated that you did something wrong, I am really puzzled.

Maybe that is why in the 1929 crash bankers commited suicide and now is working people in Greece and Spain who is commiting suicide?.

I wish anyone who is struggling financially better times soon, but the Spanish did vote for high spending governments and Spain did have tens of billions of euros from EU structural funds and the Spanish willingly joined the euro which exacerbated its uncompetitiveness. I don't really see how Spanish citizens can wash their hands of the mess.

It isn't bankers who will pay the price, it's the citizens, especially those from Western Europe, who will. I feel very sorry for ordinary Spanish citizens who are no more economists than most, but nor am I happy about contributing to the fund that pays off the debts of countries who've lived well beyond their means, and I'm even less happy at the UK government committing future generations to pay off those debts. It's immoral. We have a serious debt crisis of our own.

And no, I don't think raising taxes is ever the answer. It reduces the incentive to work.

Originally Posted by tamora

I wish anyone who is struggling financially better times soon, but the Spanish did vote for high spending governments and Spain did have tens of billions of euros from EU structural funds and the Spanish willingly joined the euro which exacerbated its uncompetitiveness. I don't really see how Spanish citizens can wash their hands of the mess.

It isn't bankers who will pay the price, it's the citizens, especially those from Western Europe, who will. I feel very sorry for ordinary Spanish citizens who are no more economists than most, but nor am I happy about contributing to the fund that pays off the debts of countries who've lived well beyond their means, and I'm even less happy at the UK government committing future generations to pay off those debts. It's immoral. We have a serious debt crisis of our own.

And no, I don't think raising taxes is ever the answer. It reduces the incentive to work.

Did you read the thread or only the last posts?
Spanish problems did not occur because of "high spending government" but because of unlimited cheap money that caused a housing bubble .
Southern Europe's debt is odious and it shouldn't be paid .

Originally Posted by mutmekep

Did you read the thread or only the last posts?
Spanish problems did not occur because of "high spending government" but because of unlimited cheap money that caused a housing bubble .
Southern Europe's debt is odious and it shouldn't be paid .

I totally agree. It seems to me some people want to make us believe this theory: "You Spain/Greece/Iceland/Ireland/Portugal have lived beyond your incomes, you voted for high expenses and now, you are paying the consequences" , in this way, banks and bankers feel better, putting the blame on us, on certain countries.

Yesterday I watched a four-part documentary called "Meltdown" on youtube, and in the last part you clearly see how Iceland , which never before had been in financial troubles or engagements, had a very severe crisis and that every citizen in there owed 3.4 thousand dollars to pay off the debt, if I don´t recall the figure badly. The same applies to China, to my amazement , I was watching how many factories shut down, and the narrator said: "China was one of the first countries in noticing the tsunami from Wall Street" (not eaxctly that way, but sort of).

After that, it was a heartbreaking story about foreclosures in California, with people homeless living in camps, in the surroundings , in Sacramento, many camps, with whole families, the Dubai, the Spain, then Greece....so, do you think it is these countries´ fault? all at the same times? . That makes me think a lot and that is why I agree with Mutmekep.