Even as an european it is quite hard to grasp any good view to the wider problems of Europe. I'm from Finland and these terrorist strikes of Madrid or religious problems in the Middle-Europe gains probably the same kind of substance as the 9/11 and the african-american issues for the people in Alaska.

We haven't had any major religous conflict or terrorist strike. We don't seem to have any radical religous groups. The muslim minorities seems to be doing rather well, and the second generation seems to be integrated rather well in here. Of cource I'm not an expert on these issues. This is what I have understood from the news and the articles what I have read.

What kind of problems the other European countries are facing? Do you have any better views for these issues? And what kind of solutions there could be? Especially the opinions from the european muslims would valuable.

Is there some kind of fundamental problems between the islamic and the european cultures? At least the radical islamistic beliefs have fundamental contradiction with the modern secular democracies. They kind of demand islamic teocratic state.

Anyway, there has been one muslims minority in Finland for a century called Tatars. Their religion has been seen as the finnish version of Islam. For me it seems, that they have had no major problems in integrating into the finnish culture. In practice they are finnish with a different religion and perhaps - with a somewhat different culture.
(more info http://virtual.finland.fi/netcomm/ne...ntNWSAID=26477)

One question is that if they have intergrated, why cannot the others? And if there is no any fundamental problem, that what is left are the practical problems, which with time and patience might verý well be solvable.

What are your opinions?

-BtD

Toinen Suomalainen? Täällä! Ei voi olla totta!


Now, Finnishness aside.
True, but I wouldn't call all of our Somalis quite integrated either. Overall, you must remember that Finland is an astoundingly homogenic nation, and largely Lutheran also. Something which doesn't make Finland the perfect country to use as an example of muslim extremism.
I still maintain that the whole 'Muslims are overtaking Europe' argument is completely blown out of proportion by the right wing press that one has to step back and take a seperate look. Muslims constitute clear minorities in all EU-15 countries, even in all EU-25 countries. It was/is foolish to expect them to integrate by themselves, and that has been proven. Tightened policing and intelligence monitoring is enough to prevent muslim extremists. France has in this regard taken a very tough stance.
As for solutions, strengthen the integration of foreign culture muslims. I'm quite sure (though I have no figures) that these extremists are largely immigrants and not locally born/educated muslims.
Islam and Europe have coexisted in the past, and they do by and large coexist. The age of the Crusades has ended. Besides, we in the west have our own Anarchists and Christian fundamentalists.
The Tatars are a pathetically small (with no offense) minority that they do not even deserve that status. Approximately 800, ahem... (They constitute 0.01% of the Finnish population)
I think we have more non-Tatar muslims than Tatars.
Why we enacted Swedish as a national language is probably one of the only more incomprehensible things done by this government for minorities.
A large failure in government policies. People do not integrate themselves, the integration must to some degree be forced. I personally am a strong advocate for language requirements and Singapore-like wealth requirements, and also oppose the acceptance of large amounts of refegees.

Moi, vaan.

Vähän sellainen riitaisa luonne, että politiikkaa piti tulla haastamaan. Noita vääriä mielipiteitä kun ei löydy kotomaasta tarpeeksi

This is certainly true, but I would see the problem still serious. The madrid terrorist strike was rather alarming. It happened once. It could happen again. These strikes made by radical muslims are anyway quite new phenomenon in Europe, and the phenomenon itself might still be growing. Can we yet predict the magnitude of the true problem?

Of course the europeans are now more aware of the problem and the threads, and the law-enforcement can more effectivily fight against them. Plus now, in large parts of europe it is quite hard to find any political reasons, why these radical groups would commit terrorist strikes, at least now, when the Italy and England are the last ones in Iraq. This, in case rationality is something, which can be expected from these groups... which might not be the case.

This would suggest, that the problem would solve itself by simply waiting, that the second generation will get comfortable in their new homeland... It is not an impossible thought for well-being has its own calming effect.

It will take time though.

The tatars have been able to maintain their own language (to some extend) and their own culture. At least the state has accepted the tatars as a minority for these singular reasons. And with no doubt, they are muslims and also well integrated in the finnish culture. They have their own mosque and an active religous group.

Well. I have to admid, that it requires a bigger mass to be able to maintain any radical cultural differences and cultural intolerance, which I think, was the original problem.

With an ethnic population less than 1000, the integrations starts to resemble an assimilation in many ways. The ethnic minority loses slowly its members and distinctive characteristics before it disappears. Plus the small minorities has no real options besides the integration.

This makes sence. It is quite vain to welcome huge masses of ethnicities, if it means accumulating social problems.

-BtD

Ymmärrän hyvinkin, tämä on ihan hyvä foorumi sitä varten. Ja myös pääsee ärsyttämään jenkkejä.
Mistäs päin Suomea ollaan?
Hesasta täällä.
I used to have a great link to the Eurostat site which gave recent immigration figures in the EU, but they changed the url.
Anyway, the figures indicated that most of immigration in Europe is intermigration between member states, only a minority of it is from other non-EU countries.
Madrid was alarming, but it shows that we should not be lax. The threat applies to us too even if we don't act as aggressively as the US. Spanish police did catch the entire cell which commited the crime within a few days, so I'm more inclined to think that Madrid was more of the exception that the rule.
Hopefully, but you never know. I think it would be wise to stay on guard nonetheless.
I think time will solve this issue, once the US backs down. (Something which they have to do, the strain on the economy and the impossibility of the fight will eventually force the US to change policy)
We should just sit and wait, of course. The government should try and integrate them further and supress any sign of terrorism with draconian measures.
Countries have integrated large waves of migrants in the past, I don't really see what is so fundamentally different about this wave.
I know, but I am guessing they get somesort of tax exemptions and other benefits for being a minority. But yep, they are a part of Finnish culture, albeit a very tiny one.
Yep, there is a term for it. (Can't remember it however)
There's a theory which states that there has to be over a million of one culture to keep it 'alive' and existing. Once the numbers start dropping below that, with cultural intermarriage, and youths losing interest, the culture starts to weaken,making it prone to extinction.

Otaniemestä. Pääsi opiskeluissa työt loppumaan kesken, niin piti löytää muuta aktiviteettiä.

-BtD

Another Finn? How many of you are there!? Just kidding.

http://europa.eu.int/comm/justice_ho...gration_en.pdf

This is pretty good, don't know if its the same one you had last time, but its pretty good.

http://europa.eu.int/comm/justice_ho...86_2003_en.pdf

This is another fairly good one on aylum.

In Britain, we have a much larger immigration per 1000 citizens (2-3) than Finland (0.5). Also, our (non-EU) immigrants are mostly Muslims, and the government has a habit of shoving them in run-down council flats, where they become highly concentrated, making a 'mini-Pakistan' or whatever, so they cannot integrate; as opposed to the French policy, which spreads immigrants out as much as possible, an idea that is working and that I advocate.

The segregation that these mini-communities experience, as well as the fact that they find it hard to get jobs (they are often stuck in low-employment areas) makes it easy for drug-dealers and so on to move in, creating high-profile anti-social behaviour, which leads to the demonisation of ethnic minorities by the media. The resentment of this image can be brought to the boil by a few nutjobs like Abu Hamza (the one-eyed Islamic extremists with a hook for a hand - the original Arab pirate ) and others.

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"I see no reason why...there should not arise a United States of Europe" Winston Churchill, 1946

Any idea what it is for the USA?

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"When I'm in command, every mission is a suicide mission!" -Capt. Zapp Branigan
The United Church of the Latter Day Tangential Tarts

About 5% for the USA

Yeah, I think there's about 280 million of you.

__________________
"I see no reason why...there should not arise a United States of Europe" Winston Churchill, 1946

funny, but not all the people here are immigrants. Many are descendants of settlers, not immigrants.