Political Forum
     

Go Back   Political Forum > Politics by Region > Western Europe


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #191 (permalink)  
Old 02-17-2006, 05:33 AM
BenS BenS is offline
Observer
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 49
BenS is on a distinguished road
Credits: 392
Default Bible/Quran comparison

"Islam is the only religion whose doctrine requires holy war against the unbelievers. It is worse than other religions. Yes there are some iffy parts of the Old Testament, but with regard to warfare, they are purely historical as far as I know. According to the Bible, God has commanded such things in the past. "

You can't exclude iffy parts of the old testement anymore than you can exclude the quotes you are using from the quran. The fact is ALL religious extremism whether Christian, Muslim or otherwise is the fault of doctrine over reason.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Red Cross - Donate Today    Save the Rainforest
  #192 (permalink)  
Old 03-07-2006, 02:50 PM
ausa999 ausa999 is offline
Observer
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 12
ausa999 is on a distinguished road
Credits: 187
Default The British need protection ...

I am only a naturalized British citizen so I speak with a hughe accent, but I must say that these eastern European/Asian "immigrant/refugees" did more harm to Britain than a nuclear bomb. In my hose in Coventry I had a beautiful garden that they used for crepping, inside I had a beautiful wall-to-wall DOLTON carpet that they burned(!) up, and they have never seen a washer+dryer so they moulded my walls and rotted my window-frames by drying their wet clothes on them. All this under just one year when my agent got the British government to pay the relatively high rent I demanded. Yes! The British government put Albanian pigs in my BEAUTIFUL English house at an above-market cost to turn it into a pile of ... . Are you surprised the British National Party is winning? They should!!!!!
Reply With Quote
  #193 (permalink)  
Old 03-08-2006, 08:30 AM
Doctiloquus's Avatar
Doctiloquus Doctiloquus is offline
Analyst
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Out in the perimeter
Posts: 2,729
france uk england
Doctiloquus has a spectacular aura aboutDoctiloquus has a spectacular aura about
Credits: 11,524
Default .

So because you had some tenants that were immigrants and didn't give a sh*t about your house, you support the BNP and hate all immigrants? If you meet a British person who isn't an immigrant and who is a complete ar$ehole (and there are many of them) are you going to hate all non-immigrants?
__________________
It's the difference between suicide and slow capitulation... - Jim Morrison
Reply With Quote
  #194 (permalink)  
Old 05-26-2006, 11:54 AM
Dial8 Dial8 is offline
Correspondent
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 185
Dial8 is on a distinguished road
Credits: 1,117
Default O.T.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BenS";p=&quot View Post
"Islam is the only religion whose doctrine requires holy war against the unbelievers. It is worse than other religions. Yes there are some iffy parts of the Old Testament, but with regard to warfare, they are purely historical as far as I know. According to the Bible, God has commanded such things in the past. "

You can't exclude iffy parts of the old testement anymore than you can exclude the quotes you are using from the quran. The fact is ALL religious extremism whether Christian, Muslim or otherwise is the fault of doctrine over reason.

How am I trying to "exclude" iffy parts of the Old Testament?
Reply With Quote
  #195 (permalink)  
Old 05-26-2006, 12:05 PM
Dial8 Dial8 is offline
Correspondent
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 185
Dial8 is on a distinguished road
Credits: 1,117
Default Islam

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctiloquus";p=&quot View Post
You have proven nothing but your own arrogance... and your ignorance and hatred of Islam.
Sorry, but I have proved you don't know what you are talking about with regard to both the Quran and Hadith.

For example-

Quote:
It doesn't say that warfare is an "awesome evil" as you claim, as you have used that verse. (That is certainly the impression we would get from reading you.) It is merely talking about some Muslims who violated a pagan custom, not to fight in a certain month. I do believe you are guilty of taking material out of context.
You even seemed to admit you were wrong:

Quote:
It seemes that quote was taken out of context... I appologise, I did not know.
If your making mistakes like that then it is YOU that is ignorant of Islam. As for accusing me of "hatred" of Islam, you need to grow up, to be critical of something is not necessarily to hate those involved.
Reply With Quote
  #196 (permalink)  
Old 05-27-2006, 08:12 AM
Dial8 Dial8 is offline
Correspondent
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 185
Dial8 is on a distinguished road
Credits: 1,117
Default Religion of Peace

Quote:
Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform all that, then they save their lives and property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah."

Bukari, Vol.1, bk.2, No.24
Quote:
A man came to Allah's Apostle and said, "Instruct me as to such a deed as equals Jihad (in reward)." He replied, "I do not find such a deed." Then he added, "Can you, while the Muslim fighter is in the battle-field, enter your mosque to perform prayers without cease and fast and never break your fast?" The man said, "But who can do that?" Abu- Huraira added, "The Mujahid (i.e. Muslim fighter) is rewarded even for the footsteps of his horse while it wanders bout (for grazing) tied in a long rope."

Bukhari, Vol.4, bk.52, No.44
Quote:
I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "The example of a Mujahid in Allah's Cause - and Allah knows better who really strives in His Cause - is like a person who fasts and prays continuously. Allah guarantees that He will admit the Mujahid in His Cause into Paradise if he is killed, otherwise He will return him to his home safely with rewards and war booty."

Bukhari, Vol.4, bk.52, No.46
Quote:
The Prophet said, "Whoever believes in Allah and His Apostle, offer prayer perfectly and fasts the month of Ramadan, will rightfully be granted Paradise by Allah, no matter whether he fights in Allah's Cause or remains in the land where he is born." The people said, "O Allah's Apostle ! Shall we acquaint the people with the good news?" He said, "Paradise has one-hundred grades which Allah has reserved for the Mujahidin who fight in His Cause, and the distance between each of two grades is like the distance between the Heaven and the Earth.

Bukhari, Vol.4, bk.52, No.48
Quote:
The Prophet said, "A single endeavor (of fighting) in Allah's Cause in the forenoon or in the afternoon is better than the world and whatever is in it."

Bukhari, Vol.4, bk.52, No.50
Quote:
The Prophet said, "By Him in Whose Hands my life is! Were it not for some men amongst the believers who dislike to be left behind me and whom I cannot provide with means of conveyance, I would certainly never remain behind any Sariya' (army-unit) setting out in Allah's Cause. By Him in Whose Hands my life is! I would love to be martyred in Allah's Cause and then get resurrected and then get martyred, and then get resurrected again and then get martyred and then get resurrected again and then get martyred.

Bukhari, Vol.4, bk.52, No.54
Quote:
A man whose face was covered with an iron mask (i.e. clad in armor) came to the Prophet and said, "O Allah's Apostle! Shall I fight or embrace Islam first? "The Prophet said, "Embrace Islam first and then fight." So he embraced Islam, and was martyred. Allah's Apostle said, "A little work, but a great reward."

Bukhari, Vol.4, bk.52, No.63
Quote:
The Prophet said, "Nobody who enters Paradise likes to go back to the world even if he got everything on the earth, except a Mujahid who wishes to return to the world so that he may be martyred ten times because of the dignity he receives (from Allah)."

Bukhari, Vol.4, bk.52, No.72
Quote:
Allah's Apostle said, "Know that Paradise is under the shades of swords."

Bukhari, Vol.4, bk.52, No.73
Quote:
Um Haram informed us that she heard the Prophet saying, "Paradise is granted to the first batch of my followers who will undertake a naval expedition." Um Haram added, I said, 'O Allah's Apostle! Will I be amongst them?' He replied, 'You are amongst them.' The Prophet then said, 'The first army amongst' my followers who will invade Caesar's City will be forgiven their sins.' I asked, 'Will I be one of them, O Allah's Apostle?' He replied in the negative."

Bukhari, Vol.4, bk.52, No.175
Quote:
Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."

Bukhari, Vol.4, bk.52, No.177
Quote:
Allah's Apostle said, "I have been sent with the shortest expressions bearing the widest meanings, and I have been made victorious with terror (cast in the hearts of the enemy), and while I was sleeping, the keys of the treasures of the world were brought to me and put in my hand."

Bukhari, Vol.4, bk.52, No.220
Quote:
Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.'"

Bukhari, Vol.4, bk.52, No.260
Quote:
The Prophet said, "Khosrau will be ruined, and there will be no Khosrau after him, and Caesar will surely be ruined and there will be no Caesar after him, and you will spend their treasures in Allah's Cause." He called, "War is deceit".

Bukhari, Vol.4, bk.52, No.267

Quote:
The Prophet said, "War is deceit."

Bukhari, Vol.4, bk.52, No.269
Quote:
The Prophet said, "Who is ready to kill Ka'b bin Ashraf (i.e. a Jew)." Muhammad bin Maslama replied, "Do you like me to kill him?" The Prophet replied in the affirmative. Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say what I like." The Prophet replied, "I do."

Bukhari, Vol.4, bk.52, No.271
Quote:
Allah's Apostle said, "Booty has been made legal for me."

Bukhari, Vol.4, bk.53, No.351
Quote:
A bedouin asked the Prophet, "A man may fight for the sake of booty, and another may fight so that he may be mentioned by the people, and a third may fight to show his position (i.e. bravery); which of these is regarded as fighting in Allah's Cause?" The Prophet said, "He who fights so that Allah's Word (i.e. Islam) should be superior, fights for Allah's Cause."

Bukhari, Vol.4, bk.53, No.355
Quote:
While we were in the Mosque, the Prophet came out and said, "Let us go to the Jews" We went out till we reached Bait-ul-Midras. He said to them, "If you embrace Islam, you will be safe. You should know that the earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle, and I want to expel you from this land. So, if anyone amongst you owns some property, he is permitted to sell it, otherwise you should know that the Earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle."

Bukhari, Vol.4, bk.53, No.392
Quote:
Allah's Apostle said on the day of the conquest of Mecca, "There is no migration now, but there is Jihad (i.e. holy battle) and good intentions. And when you are called for Jihad, you should come out at once"

Bukhari, Vol.4, bk.53, No.412
Quote:
It is narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira that when the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) breathed his last and Abu Bakr was appointed as his successor (Caliph), those amongst the Arabs who wanted to become apostates became apostates. 'Umar b. Khattab said to Abu Bakr: Why would you fight against the people, when the Messenger of Allah declared: I have been directed to fight against people so long as they do not say: There is no god but Allah, and he who professed it was granted full protection of his property and life on my behalf except for a right? His (other) affairs rest with Allah. Upon this Abu Bakr said: By Allah, I would definitely fight against him who severed prayer from Zakat, for it is the obligation upon the rich. By Allah, I would fight against them even to secure the cord (used for hobbling the feet of a camel) which they used to give to the Messenger of Allah (as zakat) but now they have withheld it. Umar b. Khattab remarked: By Allah, I found nothing but the fact that Allah had opened the heart of Abu Bakr for (perceiving the justification of) fighting (against those who refused to pay Zakat) and I fully recognized that the (stand of Abu Bakr) was right.

Muslim, bk.1, No.29
Quote:
It is reported on the authority of Abu Huraira that he heard the Messenger of Allah say: I have been commanded to fight against people, till they testify to the fact that there is no god but Allah, and believe in me (that) I am the messenger (from the Lord) and in all that I have brought. And when they do it, their blood and riches are guaranteed protection on my behalf except where it is justified by law, and their affairs rest with Allah.

Muslim, bk.1, No.31
Quote:
the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer, and pay Zakat and if they do it, their blood and property are guaranteed protection on my behalf except when justified by law, and their affairs rest with Allah.

Muslim, bk.1, No.33
Quote:
when the Messenger of Allah appointed anyone as leader of an army or detachment he would especially exhort him to fear Allah and to be good to the Muslims who were with him. He would say: Fight in the name of Allah and in the way of Allah. Fight against those who disbelieve in Allah. Make a holy war, do not embezzle the spoils; do not break your pledge; and do not mutilate (the dead) bodies; do not kill the children. When you meet your enemies who are polytheists, invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them. Then invite them to migrate from their lands to the land of Muhairs and inform them that, if they do so, they shall have all the privileges and obligations of the Muhajirs. If they refuse to migrate, tell them that they will have the status of Bedouin Muilims and will be subjected to the Commands of Allah like other Muslims, but they will not get any share from the spoils of war or Fai' except when they actually fight with the Muslims (against the disbelievers). If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them.

Muslim, bk.19, No.4294
Quote:
The spoils of war were not made lawful for any people before us, This is because Allah saw our weakness and humility and made them lawful for us.

Muslim, bk.19, No.4327
Quote:
the Messenger of Allah said: If you come to a township (which has surrendered without a formal war) and stay therein, you have a share (that will be in the form of an award) in (the properties obtained from) it. If a township disobeys Allah and His Messenger (and actually fights against the Muslims) one-fifth of the booty seized therefrom is for Allah and His Apostle and the rest is for you.

Muslim, bk.19, No.4346
Quote:
The Messenger sent Khalid with an army of 400 to Harith [a South Arabian tribe] and ordered him to invite them to Islam for three days before he fought them. If they were to respond and submit, he was to teach them the Book of Allah, the Sunnah of His Prophet, and the requirements of Islam. If they should decline, then he was to fight them."

Tabari, Vol.9
Reply With Quote
  #197 (permalink)  
Old 05-27-2006, 11:47 AM
Johnderondon's Avatar
Johnderondon Johnderondon is offline
Commentator
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: London
Posts: 1,550
Johnderondon will become famous soon enoughJohnderondon will become famous soon enough
Credits: 10,550
Default .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dial8";p=&quot View Post


How am I trying to "exclude" iffy parts of the Old Testament?
By arguing, effectively, that they are not comparable to `iffy` parts of the Quran.

You dimiss the astonishing fact that both these `Holy` books contain parts that support violence and other atrocious behaviour and choose to focus instead on differences in their presentation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dial8";p=&quot View Post
. As for accusing me of "hatred" of Islam, you need to grow up, to be critical of something is not necessarily to hate those involved.
That is true but unbalanced criticism does lead one to suspect...
__________________
Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.
Marx (G.)
Reply With Quote
  #198 (permalink)  
Old 05-28-2006, 09:23 AM
Dial8 Dial8 is offline
Correspondent
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 185
Dial8 is on a distinguished road
Credits: 1,117
Default Religion of Peace

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnderondon";p=&quot View Post

By arguing, effectively, that they are not comparable to `iffy` parts of the Quran.

You dimiss the astonishing fact that both these `Holy` books contain parts that support violence and other atrocious behaviour and choose to focus instead on differences in their presentation.

Well I have claimed that the Old Testament doesn't teach a general command to go out and fight the unbelievers. When I say this, it is merely what I believe to be true. If someone knows better then please provide the evidence. If the evidence can't be provided, then why on earth shouldn't I point out the difference? And I don't think I have focused on any difference in "presentation", could you explain yourself on this point?
Reply With Quote
  #199 (permalink)  
Old 05-28-2006, 09:29 AM
Dial8 Dial8 is offline
Correspondent
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 185
Dial8 is on a distinguished road
Credits: 1,117
Default Religion of Peace

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnderondon";p=&quot View Post

That is true but unbalanced criticism does lead one to suspect...
Well how much have you seen me write on the subject of Christianity? How on earth do you know how critical I am of that religion?
Reply With Quote
  #200 (permalink)  
Old 05-28-2006, 01:53 PM
Johnderondon's Avatar
Johnderondon Johnderondon is offline
Commentator
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: London
Posts: 1,550
Johnderondon will become famous soon enoughJohnderondon will become famous soon enough
Credits: 10,550
Default That`s what I mean.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dial8";p=&quot View Post

Well I have claimed that the Old Testament doesn't teach a general command to go out and fight the unbelievers.

That you have siezed upon this difference and thereby declared the Quran "worse", ignoring the fact that Christians have interpreted God`s will from the stories and parables within the Bible, that you have dismissed as just "historical", every bit as much as muslims have been guided by the Quran.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dial8";p=&quot View Post

Well how much have you seen me write on the subject of Christianity? How on earth do you know how critical I am of that religion?
I`ve seen you write very little criticism of Christianity.

That`s what I was saying.

You`ve written quite a bit of criticism of Islam and the Quran (quoting impressively I would add) but your criticism of the Bible has been restricted to

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dial8";p=&quot View Post
Yes there are some iffy parts of the Old Testament, but with regard to warfare, they are purely historical as far as I know.
Comes across a little one sided that`s all.

But, hey, that`s your point isn`t it?
__________________
Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.
Marx (G.)
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off
Forum Jump

Sponsored Links

All times are GMT -8. The time now is 08:45 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0
Template-Modifikationen durch TMS
vBCredits v1.3 ©2007 by Darkwaltz4
Advertisement System V2.1 By   Branden