The myth of the "vulnerable" gun free zone

Obviously you are not expected to be able to defend yourself or your family/home in the UK.

Father arrested for murder over knifing suspected burglar

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...or-murder-over-knifing-suspected-burglar.html

Seems they are more concerned with the criminal over there.

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Obviously you are not expected to be able to defend yourself or your family/home in the UK.

Father arrested for murder over knifing suspected burglar

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8771809/Father-arrested-for-murder-over-knifing-suspected-burglar.html

Seems they are more concerned with the criminal over there.

 

No, the murder rate did not change, it actually spiked up 3 years AFTER the ban. People are still getting murdered at the same rate without guns, it does not matter how lethal they are compared to other means.

Bans do not work, prove me otherwise starting with your country and England.

 

Biblically speaking, no more than an eye for an eye, no more than a tooth for a tooth. Agreed.

I wouldn't use a quietly fatalistic word like acceptance in this case; I'm just not for prohibiting it as a choice.

I accept the belief that people have the God-given right to choose victimhood for themselves at any level but not for others.

 

I dont know about what you would do bowers BUT If someone attacks me with a knife, I am not pulling out a flower to defend myself just like if someone attacks me with a gun, I am not going to throw paper to defend myself. I doubt pulling out a law book and showing him "This is a gun free zome" Means his weapons are not permitted in the area and will keep him from putting a bullet in my head.

 

The above is simply bizarre...as truth is often stranger than fiction.

Not hard to believe as it (the authority's judgment) is akin to the same mindset behind the American Public Schools Zero Tolerance Policy.

In America, at least most states have enacted laws that see the homeowner as innocent until proven guilty when the lives of the residents are at risk from violent home invaders.

 

Bowerbird,

So "only" 1/3 of the firearm murders were in "gun free" zones?

Yep sign me up on that bandwagon! What kind of crazy odds are you promoting here anyway? It "might" make sense if only 5-10% of firearms murders were in "gun free" zones, but to promote them based on 33% seems foolhardy at best! I would call 33% a collosial failure.

 

But don't you think you could defend yourself WITHOUT killing the other person?

 

A firearm is the last resort and should never be used casually. When we were approached, I was left with no choice. One ran away, the other proceeded against my wife with deadly intent. I followed my training and he got a break and lived. I never batted an eye, never went to visit him in the hospital, went to his trial where he was sentenced to 5 years. He had a record as long as my arm with violent offenses which included two attempted murders while awaiting trial for the first attempt. He knifed his sister and a friend. According to the details, they tried to talk him down, but failed. He was out on bail.
Nope, I have no problem with it at all.
Here's the rub, I gave him an out and ordered him back, displayed my firearm as he approached with a knife out and ready to use. He left me with no choice and the law agreed with me: Self-defense.
He made every choice to be there and chose to do what he did, he had a way out, but he chose to engage. He told the judge he didn't think I would shoot.

 

Reality (life) can be awesome experience if raised to see it for what it is...trouble is, at least sometimes, people can go through life believing that they are protected from reality (they believe in and promote-gun (really people) control, gun free zones, zero tolerance-don't defend against the aggressor, look the other way, there really is no absolute right or wrong it is all relative etc.).

Then one day they run into someone who gives them a lifetime of reality lessons in one instance. Good for your wife she was with someone who was willing to protect her up to and including deadly force. And good for you that you didn't have to face this would-be killer unarmed. Though I suspect there are those on this board that would vote you into that unarmed position in a heartbeat.

Sometimes an appropriately administered butt-whoopin' can save lives...just like your firearm, dedication, skill and most importantly the proper mindset did for you and your wife...and dare I add made society, at least locally, a little safer for a time. At the very least you gave this criminal a chance to rethink his behavior. And I believe him when he told the judge he didn't think you would shoot...that's a real problem for a criminal when he attacks someone who is prepared and isn't inclined to practice the victimhood that American kids are taught in school.

I wonder if your attacker, after being repelled, thought life just ain't fair, but seems a logical action/reaction scenario to me. .

 

Im sure I could beat the person with a baseball bat and TRY not to kill them dosnt mean he wont die. Just like I could always use Rubber Slugs for a shotgun and still kill him. I Agree firearms are last line of defense based on situation. For my house hold its The Door (1) The Bulldog (2) at a Distance my gun (3) Close combat would be my knife (4)

I could probably taser the person and he could still die. I could shoot him and he still live. Nothings guaranteed no matter what tools you use.

 

But it is like the difference between hitting a pedestrian when travelling at 5 kilometres an hour or hitting them when travelling at 60

Which one of those is more survivable?


This is why gun restrictions have such an impact on suicide rates - especially with males, tend to use more violent means of suicide. The other means are more survivable. Remembering that a LOT of near suicides NEVER do it again - it was just a bad day, bad time, black dog

 

Depends, Some people HAVE survived being hit at 60 mph and some people have died being hit by 5 mph.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...peeding-car-dragged-road-clinging-bonnet.html

Heck some people have even lived after being shot in the face.
http://now.msn.com/atlanta-mom-shoots-intruder-in-the-face-5-times

 

OKAY - will explain slowly

Statistics = The mathematics of the collection, organization, and interpretation of numerical data, especially the analysis of population characteristics by inference from sampling.

So when we say that it is statistically more probable that one thing will happen over another it does not mean that something will NEVER happen it is just that the outcome for one is MORE LIKELY

Look - doesn't the American school system teach ANYTHING about probabilities? No wonder you have so much gambling over there

Reminder - you are talking to an ICU nurse I have seen more bloody MVA's than you have had hot dinners - I have seen FAR more gunshot injuries than you ever will and that is an Australian ICU nurse where we have a tenth the gunshot injury rate the USA has

 

Question, If a woman was being attacked by a male attacker, would it make more sense she be armed or just submit to their will and hope she does not die?

I would much rather my ol lady, you, or any females I know and consider friends or aquantances not ever get harmed, However The world is not perfect, There are religious fanatics on all sides of the coin who will tell you this or that, and Bad people will always get by those who protect. I would rather you (All) Be safe and armed, BUT, If guns are not a suitable line of defense for someone else with a gun, Then how will you defend yourself?

A Man attacks a woman she has a better chance with a gun and being trained to use it.
An older gentlemen is being attacked by a mob of kids his chances increase by owning a firearm.

I found this might be intresting.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/jul/22/gun-homicides-ownership-world-list

We have the most guns and still arent the most violent, YET, Everyone looks to take our guns.

 

I am debunking the myth that all multiple shootings happened in gun free zones

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How do you think women in the UK and Australia manage?

 

So would you say your opinion is biased due to the fact that you are around gunshot wounds possibly daily? Would you say your "life experience" would be different from others because of your life choice of treating patients? I have friends who are vets who STILL own and fire weapons. A Good friend of mine actually encouraged me and helped me when choosing my firearm who is a vet, and has very little mobility in his right hand (Always clenched) and his left leg dosnt move as well as it used to (walks with a cane for the most part) BUT he still bakes for himself, Does carpentry work Reloads ammunition, and rides a motorcycle.

I Understand statistics However my part of explaining to you was, Just because its more then likely the outcome DOSNT always mean it is. Just cause 10 people own guns dosnt mean they are all going to die by gunshot wounds.

 

I would like to hope with some time of DEADLY weapon not a can of spray paint.

(Side Note: I like your Gun free zone thread, Good thread )

 

So all those people killed in gun free zones are just a myth eh?

 

I get it, you are pro-life, would rather see everyone live, well me too. However, what is really at the beating heart of the matter being discussed here (at least for me) is not a statistic. Statistics are impersonal, reducing life to equations/ratios and not applicable 100% of the time. What is 100% applicable every time is everyone forced into a bad situation wants to survive it. You want to limit their options because you think that is society's best pro-life choice. I want those forced into a situation to survive it by the means that best afford them the opportunity in achieving that goal...because I'm pro-their life.

When you are without another choice and forced to choose survival by lethal force, I support it being available for you every time you need it. Why do you want to take that choice for survival from others? Please share the reason why you would rather be hurt, maimed or murdered instead of using a weapon (i.e. firearm) to keep you from harm?

I believe that suicide is a permanent solution to what is most likely a temporary problem. Some societies have laws against it. You want to take firearms away from Americans so suicides in the USA would decrease, what would you take from the Japanese to decrease their rate?

What follows below is both provocative and (imo) interesting;

Above-This is a 1993 article. Japan's reported suicide rate is still about twice that of America.

 

Bowerbird,

I'm not sure I've ever heard a claim that "all multiple shootings happen in gun free zones". Given the relatively limited numbers of actual "gun free" zones - I would say a disproportionate number of multiple shootings do occur in "gun free" zones. To say "all" would be silly and easily debunked.

Surely the 33% figure you cited is much greater than the percentage of "gun free" area. Say the area has 10% gun free zones and you point out that 1/3rd of all "multiple shootings" occur in these areas - that would mean 90% of the "non gun free zones" have 67% of the shootings - or you're about four times more likely to be involved in a multiple shooting in a "gun free" zone. I'm just throwing out numbers here - if the area you cited has 33% or greater gun free zones - then they may actually be safer. I'm sure it's very difficult to pin down actual percentages, but I hope you get my meaning.

 

My question is if a person with a CCW permit could prevent even one death form a mass shooter wouldn't that be enough to allow it?
I know for a fact that someone with a gun did stop the Pearl Mississippi school shooter... does that not count for something? Thats just one example.

 

A few stories from this year alone:

The Standard Speaker: A female homeowner shot one of several intruders breaking into her home in Pennsylvania. The woman was wounded but is expected to recover; one intruder was killed, the others retreated.


According to NBC Miami, A would-be armed robber was killed after his victim turned the tables and shot him in Miami Tuesday night, police said.
The incident happened around 7:30 p.m. outside an apartment building in the 7000 block of Northwest 15th Avenue when the armed suspect approached the victim and demanded his belongings, Miami Police said.
During the incident, the robber shot the victim in the hand. The victim, obviously fearing for his life at this point, drew his own gun and shot the robber multiple times.
Both the robbery suspect and the victim were taken for treatment at an area hospital. The suspected robber died of his injuries and the victim was treated for a non life threatening injury to his hand.
Police are continuing to investigate the incident.



The owner of La Familia Store in York, PA was facing an armed couple, a male and a female, brandished a gun and demanded money.
Their plans were foiled when the owner of the store produced his own gun and fired at the two suspects, who then fled.
Police located the female suspect nearby suffering from a gunshot wound. She was taken into custody and is being treated at an area hospital.
The male suspect is still on the loose.



A Maryland resident heard loud banging on their apartment door Thursday night.
The resident armed themselves with a handgun and went to investigate.
When they cracked the door to see what was going on, a man forced his way into the home.
The homeowner shot the intruder once in the torso.
The intruder fled and took refuge in another apartment until police arrived.
The suspect is being treated at an area hospital.
Charges are pending.

A mother in Alabama was in fear for her life when she found herself face to face with a man dressed in all black who had broken into her home during the middle of the day.
The woman quickly grabbed a pistol from underneath her mattress and pointed it at the intruder, who then fled after the woman told him he needed to go as she kept the weapon aimed at him.
In an odd twist, the suspect returned before police could arrive and left a letter saying he was sorry.
Police arrested one of the woman’s neighbors for the crime and he is facing a felony burglary charge.

A homeowner in TX found an intruder in his living room after investigating a noise in the middle of the night.
The homeowner, who was armed, tried to hold the suspect at gunpoint until police arrived.
However, the suspect allegedly made a move towards the homeowner’s wife and that’s when the homeowner shot him.
The suspect was hit once in the leg and is being treated at an area hospital.
There were three children in the home at the time of the incident, but they are all fine.



An intruder was shot around 4:30am when he tried to break into a home in East Ridge, TN.
The intruder was apparently there to try and kill his ex-girlfriend, who is a resident of the home.
She lives in the home with another female and a male. The male was the one who shot the suspect when he broke into the home.
The suspect was taken to an area hospital and is in unknown condition.

A homeowner in Indiana found an intruder in his home shortly after 10am.
The intruder was armed with a handgun. The homeowner used his own gun to fire several shots at the intruder.
The suspect fled the scene on foot once the shooting started.
It is not believed the suspect was hit. It is unclear if the homeowner was carrying his gun on his person or if he retrieved it from somewhere in the home.
No charges are expected against the homeowner.

A homeowner described as an “older gentleman” was forced to defend himself and his home when an intruder tried to break into the home through a door.
The homeowner awoke around 4am to find the would be burglar coming into his home.
The homeowner fired a single shot at the suspect, striking him once in the stomach.
The suspect fled the area, but showed up at an area hospital suffering from a gunshot wound a short time later.
A police investigation linked the shot suspect to the burglary attempt.
The suspect has other outstanding felony warrants as well.
No charges are expected against the homeowner.



Two people were in an Ohio home when five men stormed the residence with the intent to assault or rob the occupants.
A struggle ensued in which one of the residents was injured.
Two of the would be home invaders were shot. One was found with life threatening injuries inside the home, while the second was found collapsed on a nearby street.
The other three suspects are being detained by police.

A mother in Magnolia, TX was forced to defend herself and her six year old daughter when 3 men forced their way into the home where the two women were.
The men were met with gunfire from the mother who believes she may have hit one of the men, but all three escaped.
Neither the mother or her daughter were harmed.

 

This is the sort of post you get when people read the title but not the OP

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This is the sort of post you get when people read the title but not the OP

 

Let us look then at survival in military terms..............especially since you have brought an unrelated subject like suicide into the mix (yes suicide rates are unrelated to gun crime and it is a very clever marketing ploy to try and confuse the issue by linking the two)



Which ever way you chop it Americas gun mortality/injury rate is so far above other nations that the only places you can compare it to have a long history of civl unrest

Yes it is coming down but it still remains orders of magnitude above Europe, Australia and many other countries in the world

You want fewer deaths - restrict your guns.

 

If you have not heard that then go look at some of the threads around mass shootings it is a common catch cry that "if it had not been a gun free zone the shooting would not have happened"

but if you want a real comparator for gun free zones and mass shootings

Before 1996 when Australia tightened it's gun laws we had 13 mass shootings in 18 years - in the 16 years since then - ONE

Google up mass shooting and start counting and you get a pattern - something like

America America America somewhere else America america america america somewhere else

Unless you count in areas of ongoing civil unrest such as South Africa and the Middle East you have a phenomenal amount of gun related injury and death

And let us not even GO there with your gun injury rate - but you can multiply that number by about 3
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...s-had-one-mass-shooting-per-month-since-2009/

But to dismantle the idea of the vulnerable gun free zone is also to dismantle the idea that some sort of concealed weapon carrying superhero will leap out of a corner and stop a mass shooting

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And if restricting guns reduced your gun death rate to that of Australia's would not a gun ban be worth it?