I had the following debate over email with the author of a Holocaust denial book, who shall remain unnamed for now. I have removed his and my email address for privacy reasons. Please, read and give me your view of this debate: ME: Good afternoon. What are the conclusions of your book? I have done my own research and I believe that number of Jewish Holocaust victims is closer to 4.5 million, not 6 million. This was done by comparing the number of Jews listened in European countries, from a 1929 census of Jews in the World. I compared this to the number of Jews considered killed in each country under Nazi occupation. For example, it is believed that there were 3.3 million Jews in Poland, while in the 1929 census there were 2.8. That's a difference of 500,000. That's no chump change. HIM: I suspect the death total is under 1 million. There are problems with national censuses, and of course 1929 was well before the war - lots of emigration occurred in the following 10 years. I suggest you read Chap 3 of the book, which shows the revisionist case pretty clearly, based on global (not national) figures. ME: Under 1 million? that just can't be. There were 18 million Jews in the world in 1929..and maybe 13 million after WW2. Today there aren't even 14 million Jews. Clearly a good 4 million Jews were murdered by the Nazis. Not to mention the millions of Poles, Russians, and Germans murdered by the Nazis. HIM: jewishvirtuallibrary.org suggests about 15M in 1929, and 16.7M just before the war. But their statistics for 1900-1940 cannot be right, since they require a very high growth rate -- about 3x the rate after the war, which makes no sense. Pre-war numbers were likely inflated by 30-40%. Also the NYT reports on a global total of just 6M in 1889, and there is no way the pop could have tripled in 40 years. See Chap 3. ME: http://www.adherents.com/Na/Na_408.html at the bottom of this web page, are whole host of many census #s for the World Jewish population from 1900 to today. They vary greatly. Some say there are 18 million Jews in the world today, some say 12 million. Clearly, figuring out the number of Jews in the world is a difficult endeavor, and it is only academically sound to compare data from different time periods, from the SAME source, in order to get an accurate reading of possible fraud or deceit when it comes to pre-WW2 and post- WW2 Jewish population data. Comparing possibly OVER-estimated pre-WW2 stats., with possibly UNDER-estimated post- WW2 stats.,(all from different sources) in order to suggest that there were very few Jewish Holocaust deaths...is absolutely ridiculous. HIM: Fine -- so stick with the Jewish Virtual Library as the 'single' source, which takes data from the Israeli Central Bureau of Statistics. Is there a comprehensible explanation for a very large, 1.4% annual growth rate for the 40 years before the war, but then a 0.3% annual rate for the 50 years after the war? That's a factor of (almost) 5 difference. Unlikely, I would say. ME: #1. It is highly unprofessional, academically dishonest, and frankly very suspect, to compare pre-war census data from source A to post-war census data from source B and claim to have found an error. One can only compare pre-war and post-war data from the same source if one is going to argue any sort of inconsistency, fraud, mistake, etc. #2. You say it is impossible for the Jewish population of Europe to have tripled in 40 years , yet the Palestinians claim that their population doubled between the years 1922 and 1945 (670,000 to 1,200,000), and almost tripled between 1897 and 1945 (489,000 to 1,200,000). So, why are such supposedly incredible population increases possible for the Palestinian population of the Middle East, but not the Jewish population of Europe? ME: have you researched this issue of a disparity between pre-WW2 and post-WW2 world Jewish population growth rates...or do you simply disregard it as "impossible" and therefore see it as clear-cut evidence of a giant census data conspiracy? If you look at census data for other populations..sometimes they grow at 2%..sometimes they grow at 3%..sometimes 1%. what is my first guess as to explain this disparity in Jewish pop. growth rates? perhaps a great deal more inter-marriage, smaller families, increase in socio-economic status, ...the GUESSES are endless..but that's all they are...guesses. though, this is is a fascinating topic, and I will look into explanations for the sudden and long term dramatic drop in Jewish population growth. I hope you will too ME: http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/world-jewish-population.htm Here is an interesting website that directly deals with the issue of the almost zero growth rate of the world's Jewish population since WW2. Massive urbanization, inter-marriage, the loss of the European home base, much smaller Jewish families, and long term shock from the Holocaust, seem to all be contributing factors. The world's Jewish population has actually decreased over the years, and appears to be headed further in that direction. The Holocaust Denier didn't respond after this.
Unless I missed it, it appears as though he's not a denier of the holocaust, but a minimizer, as he said under one million. That is still a lot of dead Jewish people, though far from the real number. You yourself minimize the holocaust too. Four and a half million dead Jewish people is a lot, but again, is far from the real number. When considering how many Jewish people actually died, one mustn't stick strictly to the statistics of the era. I suspect they're highly suspect. If six million is somewhat readily agreed upon as a baseline, the last thing a person wants to do is minimize the deaths of a few hundred thousand/million individuals who died horribly. A safer work is that the statistics are understating the amount of deaths. German propensity to kill a Jew during that time was extraordinarily high. Never underestimate it.
What I've found in debates with holocaust deniers, and in with fallacious arguers in general, is that they always open with a gambit that attempts to focus on areas of contention, and then inflates that contention as much as possible. They feel that if they exploit the contention, they can then argue that the entire story is false, (even their original argument) and then can make an argument for their entirely different story. For instance I've seen: 1. A number on a plaque at a memorial site was changed from a large number to a smaller number. 2. The original number was inflated as propaganda 3. No Jews were killed they all hid behind the Ural mountains. Or something like: 1. Many Jews died of typhus, not execution. 2. The Germans attempted to combat this disease by fumigating for lice. 3. If the Germans had used more Zyklon-B, more Jews might have survived life in the concentration camps.
Here are some posts I've made about the Holocaust on another thread. http://www.politicalforum.com/zionist-agenda/317262-evidence-holocaust.html#post1062987287 http://www.politicalforum.com/zionist-agenda/317262-evidence-holocaust-20.html#post1062992455 http://www.politicalforum.com/zionist-agenda/317262-evidence-holocaust-25.html#post1062994592 http://www.politicalforum.com/zionist-agenda/317262-evidence-holocaust-26.html#post1062994673 http://www.politicalforum.com/zionist-agenda/317262-evidence-holocaust-27.html#post1062995125
Fangbeer has nailed it. At least this bloke didn't actually say it never happened like some of them do. But they will use a minimisation technique - "oh it wasn't as bad as all that..." sort of approach. One day it will be in the DSM.
That's a very vague issue and easy to obfuscate. http://www.opposingdigits.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1222 (excerpt) --------------------------------------- 4. Use a straw man. Find or create a seeming element of your opponent's argument which you can easily knock down to make yourself look good and the opponent to look bad. Either make up an issue you may safely imply exists based on your interpretation of the opponent/opponent arguments/situation, or select the weakest aspect of the weakest charges. Amplify their significance and destroy them in a way which appears to debunk all the charges, real and fabricated alike, while actually avoiding discussion of the real issues. --------------------------------------- I pointed out in the other discussion that you weren't a serious debater. http://www.politicalforum.com/zionist-agenda/317262-evidence-holocaust-27.html#post1062995125 I wouldn't be surprised if that was a bogus debate. Here are two more videos that any serious truth-seeker should watch. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4X1owF0vgnw&bpctr=1376830507 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jx9G4zmpKv0
once again you show us that denial and personal attacks is the only weapon Holocaust deniers possess.
You're trying to mislead those viewers who don't click on all the links and look at everything. I guess I'll have to post the info in the link to thwart you. http://www.politicalforum.com/zionist-agenda/317262-evidence-holocaust-27.html#post1062995125 You said this. I countered with this. This is my next post. Your response was a handwaving response that didn't address the issues in the posts. http://www.politicalforum.com/zionist-agenda/317262-evidence-holocaust-27.html#post1062995407 There. Those viewers who don't click on links and look at the issues can see your evasive tactics. You don't even seem to believe your own arguments.
You're trying to mislead viewers who haven't seen the whole issue. I addressed that in these two posts. http://www.politicalforum.com/zionist-agenda/317262-evidence-holocaust-27.html#post1062995125 http://www.politicalforum.com/zionist-agenda/317262-evidence-holocaust-29.html#post1062996977
No, I am telling the viewers the truth. Eichmann admitted to the Holocaust before he was captured by the Israelis. Notorious Holocaust-denier David Irving has changed his views and now admits the Nazis murdered millions of Jews.
That came from Life Magazine. Here's some info about the American media. http://www.politicalforum.com/zionist-agenda/317262-evidence-holocaust-26.html#post1062994673 Do you take everything that comes from the American media as fact? That might be a bogus interview. It also doesn't make this go away. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4X1owF0vgnw&bpctr=1376852211 "Judea Declares War on Germany" (Complete) Watch between the 46:40 and 50:15 time marks. There's a guy checking out the rubble of the supposed actual gas chambers. He says it's all consistent with morgues and inconsistent with gas chambers.
you have still yet to supply any direct information that the Life interview is false. all you provide is irrational & illogical bigotry.
My point is that anything that comes from the American media can't be taken as fact. Tell us exactly why the info in this post is irrational & illogical bigotry. http://www.politicalforum.com/zionist-agenda/317262-evidence-holocaust-26.html#post1062994673
that is irrational & illogical bigotry, not a sound view on the Life interview. do you have anything substantial to counter the Life interview?
Yes, I do. This. http://www.politicalforum.com/zionist-agenda/317262-evidence-holocaust-26.html#post1062994673 It's the info you keep tap dancing around instead of addressing.
Translation: The info in that link makes it so clear that the American media can't be trusted that I'd better avoid dealing with it. The info in this link is considered to be pretty basic nowadays. http://www.politicalforum.com/zionist-agenda/317262-evidence-holocaust-26.html#post1062994673 Politically informed people know the American media can't be trusted and is the worst source of information. You seem to be checkmated here.
The American media which includes Life Magazine is famous for lying as the info in this link shows. http://www.politicalforum.com/zionist-agenda/317262-evidence-holocaust-26.html#post1062994673 You're being pretty simplistic. The American media lies. There were articles in Life, Time, and Readers Digest that assumed we were the good guys and supported freedom and democracy in the world. That turned out to be a lie. http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145531 Doesn't this move you a little bit?
You're being pretty simplistic. We know the American media lies to Americans about political issues. http://www.politicalforum.com/zionist-agenda/317262-evidence-holocaust-26.html#post1062994673 Here's a classic example. http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145531 Knowing all of this, only a simpleton would take something about politics from Life Magazine as fact. You're presenting that article as genuine when it comes from a source that's famous for lying. Tell us this. Do you believe that the US defends freedom and democracy in the world? There are probably some articles in Life that assume it does.