Why do people want a $15.00 minimum wage

so rather than answer the question, you deflect? I mean if you support $15 an hour, clearly you should be able to justify why that wage, and not the others? I'm not the one supporting the stance, so I'm only attempting to ascertain why you feel one arbitrary number is more acceptable than another?

or do you not support a $15 minimum wage?

P.S. basically, what mathematical formula was used to determine $15 an hour is the wage needed, and not just an arbitrary number that felt and sounded good...

 

I asked you what about 40 dollar min wage...you responded sure in 2075...you dodged first and Im not answering your questions until you answer mine. Funny you keep accusing me of dodgng your dodges. Please answer the question without your strawman inserted. Why not a 40 dollar min wage?

 

Ok, then we should lower wages to just $1 / hour so that bread will go down to 10 cents a loaf.

Or maybe just get rid of wages and live in a commune.

 

If the funds are being misallocated, there's no meaningful difference from being underfunded.

In addition: Do you really think that parents are the only influence over a youth, or that all parents have disdain for education in the inner cities? Getting out of the ghettoes is a dream for these youth, if they believed education was a realistic path to that they'd surely value it.

Minimum wage was NEVER designed to take care of a family. NEVER.[/QUOTE]

Actually, when it was introduced, it was enough for a factory worker to care for an entire family on his own. It's simply failed to keep up with inflation. In 1968, it was roughly 10 dollars an hour in 2014 dollars.

It seems like you think that poor people should just be miserable serfs with no joy in life.

People like you almost make me wish Stalin was still alive.

Poor =/= Stupid.

 

Even with increased sales, it doesn't work. If a person is doing a job that the employer values at no more than $10/hour, raising the minimum wage isn't going to make the employer value that job more.

 

Ok for over 30 years. Because of taxes and regulations


Best idea Ive heard yet

- - - Updated - - -

It wont make them leave it will simply make them disappear.

 

So basically you want to throw money at a short term solution with no long term benefit.

You have identified the problem ... Education. Focus on that.

 

I have not stated whether I support or don't support. I'm gathering information.
Those not supporting it have given not much reason to not support it.
Given we've had min wage since 1938? It has been raised dozens of times, and yet our economy flourished. So no one has given a good reason to not support it.

 

No. I asked you 1st. You said min wage increase kills jobs and economy. I gave you a link to a chart showing how long min wage has been around and how many increases we had over the last 80 yrs.
Disproving your claim about min wage killing jobs and the economy.
You did not address that except to ask if I support a wage hike to $40/hr. What kind of response is that?
Your claim is false and I showed it to you.

And I didn't dodge your question. I answered it. Yes, I could support it. Just not today. That is a huge huge huge jump in a short amount of time.
Now, how do you continue to claim min wage kills jobs and economy. Based on the link to the chart I showed you?

 

You support wages of $0.01. Not surprised about that.

Why will they disappear? Some perhaps but it hasn't killed jobs or economy in the past.

 

Whats your basis for not supporting it today? Explain the huge jump for us

 

well generally in my life, I don't just give in to the whims of those who make claims we MUST do something, without giving me good reasons why we should... I mean, you don't give in to everything your children ask of you unless they have a good reason do you? so why would I treat the government any other way... if they can prove their case, then i will have no choice but to think logically they are right and go along with it, but I'm certainly not going to do it when they constantly can't answer the questions and then say a lot of things just to try and get me to feel emotional to give in to what they want... thats just a 5 year old learning to manipulate you for what he wants... not because he needs it, or deserves it, simply because he wants it... I'm not willing to give people things they want, they can earn those things... I only want to give them what they need...

wants and needs are VERY different things... I'm still waiting for them to prove they need it, and it won't be destructive...

one question I have asked everyone who propose a $15 or more minimum wage, is what happens when seniors come out of retirement to take those $15 an hour jobs... and we all know that MILLIONS of seniors will come out of retirement for wages like that, in fact they'll almost have to, since costs of goods will go up and they won't receive increases to social security for at least a 1 year period, which will be disastrous for them as costs jump on basic things they need... how will we fill the gap for the millions of younger and low skill people now replaced in society by people who re-entered the workforce, or will now stay in it longer past retirement age?

I mean nobody has addresses that insanely critical issue, they just magically think higher wages solve the issues... it creates a LOT more issues... for those on fixed incomes, which means we will HAVE to raise social security, disability, all the welfare programs since all the goods and services will rise in cost, we'll have to compensate and match that increase... this will mean we need hundreds of billions in new taxes taken from someone to account for the dramatic rise... now I'm one of the nutty people who doesn't understand economics or math, doubling the minimum wage won't double the cost of everything, labor is only a fraction of the cost of most goods... but realistically it will add anywhere from 30-80% to the cost of goods and services in jobs where those low wage employees are... so ultimately we will simply be raising the bar at where "poverty" is... we won't just magically lift people out of poverty, now people who make $20,000 a year will be considered impoverished and qualify for all the government assistance... which we will need to supply more of since its just a calculation of costs to live... which we just artificially increased on everyone...

man I can see myself turning this into a 20 page detailed description of the unintended consequences and reality...

either way... nobody has ever told me, what happens when millions of retirees come out of retirement and take up all the jobs of the young and low skill... employers would rather hire someone with 40 years work experience than 4 months... they will... they will by choice for extra income at those wages, and out of necessity once their fixed incomes are not compensated for ahead of time... social security was created not to help seniors, it was designed to get them out of the work force, to create an artificial labor shortage, to increase hiring for young people, and increase wages for all workers... it worked... now we're attempting to undo that, not just with a high minimum wage, but also by extending the retirement age since we've failed to fund that program... the double whammy... like I said I could go on for hours in detail...

 

If American still had good unions, a minimum wage wouldn't even be needed. Look at Switzerland or the Nordics.

The real question is, why are Americans so apathetic that they don't join unions anymore? They're forfeiting their own bargaining power.

 

The fallacy of your logic is that prices will increase in proportion to the MW increase, and that the increase will be born by the folks who benefit.

A doubled MW will not result in doubled prices. And to the extent prices are increased, wealthy folks will pay for some of that in higher costs for the maids, servants, and products made with low wage labor.

 

Why is it you won't answer the question I asked you 1st?
You don't understand your claim about min wage killing jobs and economy. And how I attempted to show how your claim is wrong and you don't get it. How could I explain a huge jump to you?

 

Not sure where you're getting all your concerns from.
It is an assumption on your part seniors will unretire. Some are simply to old or have been retired far to long to jump back into the work force.
And I think you and I both know, $15/hr min wage is mostly political fodder in an election cycle.
Some cities have implemented it, but those are high cost of living cities.
But, we have history, we've had min wage for near 80 yrs, we've increased it dozens and dozens of times. I bet every single time, the same ole cries were made from both sides. Yet the last 80yr saw some significant growth.

 

Same reason they think giving huge tax cuts to millionaires and billionaires creates more jobs or more economic growth.

RW propaganda has been highly effective.

- - - Updated - - -

Since SS is tied to inflation, seniors will see their benefits increase.

 

I think you're grossly underestimating seniors and $15 an hour... this isn't a 25 cent or $1 increase... this is almost doubling the minimum wage... thats very dramatic... seniors who recently retired or are a few years in, who are still perfectly capable of doing many of the low skill jobs, will surely jump back in because many of them had no savings their entire lives and $15 an hour will be very attractive to them... why do I make these claims, because I look at north dakota... and the HUGE oil boom they've experienced... walmart was starting people at $18 an hour... guess who filled the majority of those jobs, seniors! they literally have no workforce left to hire so seniors in that area have been coming out of retirement in droves to gobble up the increased wages... all the younger fit people are making $25 or $30 or more working the heavy equipment jobs, leaving all the low skill and light service jobs to seniors... go through there sometime, stop in the shops, you'll be hard pressed to find one without a lot of retirees who just came out for the high wages... even high school kids are working fulltime hours now out there because the money is THAT good...

so we have perfect examples of "reality" and "theory" in practice... I'm choosing to go with the reality and apply those real world examples of action/reaction and how it will trickle through the rest of this country... or do you think this is just an isolated incident that wouldn't possibly happen at $15 an hour? its sure it working at $18 an hour for wlamart out there... not to mention all the other industries paying on average $16 plus for entry level work... the only difference is those people lived there before the boom, the ones who have come in after, are being stripped of most of their money as the higher wages are causing prices to rise up to cover the increased costs... housing eats away most of their income, thats slowly changing as more capacity is brought online, but goods and services definitely reflect the increased costs...

see america doesn't need to theorize on what will happen... we have proof whats happening today out there... but people seem to wash over it on both sides like you mention on the true reality... like I said, I understand economics and math, and we won't double the cost of everything, thats lunacy on the right, but we absolutely will see a sharp rise in costs and it will not have the intended effect like the left seems to think it will... it will turn some things upsidedown and cause a lot of harm to some when we apply it to a grand scale... it works in north dakota right now because its a sheer lack of warm bodies in the door... it won't work when you apply it across america with a low workforce participation rate... and when you throw in 30 million illegals on top of that, and make them legal... wow its going to have the exact opposite effect they thought... it will create more poverty as another vacuum of illegals will be driven in to absorb the jobs those illegals left for legal work... creating a new workforce that is undercutting the one we just legalized to "feel good" about their plight..

they want equality, but sadly they don't realize it won't be a good equality, it will be one where we're all miserable and suffering lower quality of lives... all to "feel good" today...

P.S. I noticed you also have answered the question... why $15 since you seem to think its no big deal, why that number?

 

its a delayed increase annually... and where will we get that money to cover the costs? take it from the higher minimum wage right, and magically it mathematically works out? you've clearly never done the math... the major problem is we don't have enough bodies paying in, increasing the amount they pay, doesn't help when you increase the amount we pay out... you actually compound and speed up the process of failure at the current rate... another "unintended consequence" because nobody wanted to think their actions through, they only wanted to feel good about what they did today... I mean look, you just thought thats how it would work, and clearly its not... if you're paying more out and taking more in, it doesn't solve the problem when it comes down to a sheer lack of number people paying in... we're not increasing the number of people paying into the pyramid scheme... we're simply shifting more money in greater amounts speeding the whole collapse up... this isn't advanced physics, this is 3rd grade addition and subtraction...

P.S. and since its a delayed increase, what do you do for seniors the first year its implemented, do we artificially raise their benefits early? how do we pay for that as well?

 

You seem to be arguing that if working people get more income, that it will be harmful to the economy or those on SS. That's just RW nonensense.

Any increase in cost is marginal, inflation isn't going to skyrocket in one year.

But if you're concerned about the poor on SS, make it means tested.

 

Who decides the worth and by what authority? In answer to my own question the employer decides the worth and many employers would rather undervalue their employees and pocket the money for themselves. In some cases paying an employee more money will elicit better motivation and productivity.

 

I did answer your $15/hr question. I said it is mostly thrown out as political fodder in an election cycle. Min wage comes up in every election cycle.
As to your ND scenario, seniors are filling those jobs because as you said, there are no others applying. The younger folks are taking the higher paying jobs. So not a good comparison.
And $15/hr is needed in some high COL cities, but IMO, not needed nation wide.

 

how is it not a great comparison? the seniors receive social security, they don't have to work anymore... but they are CHOOSING to come out of retirement in order to get $18 an hour starting at walmart... this is the EXACT scenario people are proposing we expand nationwide... the only reason why its not devastating in north dakota is because there just aren't enough warm bodies... once you spread this nationwide, and there are plenty of warm bodies, this is when you will see the real effect of what happens when major population centers and major cities, see their elderly come take jobs from the young and middle class... because the pay is so good they can't refuse it...

this is not a leap of faith or dramatic extension of logic that would fail when applied someplace else... its a very simple and direct point of supply and demand... once you reach a city that has a vast excess supply of retired people, it will drive down demand for those young people with low to no skills... employers will take 40 years of work experience any day over the young and dumb... its a no brainer... and more elderly will remain in the workforce longer, which is a problem we're already seeing today which is causing a strain on the young and middle class already... we need those elderly to exit and stay out of the work force, thats how we keep the pressure on wages and employment...

 

Every MW raise, the job hiring decreases. On top of that, they are dictating what a business owner has to pay.

 

Actually, employers are less likely to hire the elderly over younger applicants, so your whole premise is nonsense.