Like Tecoyah.... I am mostly Pro-Life but I am somewhat Pro-Choice in that I cannot blame a woman for wanting an abortion in a case where she had been raped........ or if she is convinced that both she and her child are doomed to a life of poverty if she decides to become a single mom. I am incapable of fully empathizing with the set of circumstances that produce abortion........ so I can't judge..... I can't condemn...... what I am doing is hoping for a better economic situation here in Canada that will set up the USA to also have a better economy so that far fewer women feel that having their child will lead to a life sentence of poverty. That is why I have campaigned for public office four times already: www.BankingSystemFlaws.blogspot.ca/
If men in the USA and Canada were taught to take full responsibility for their share of the responsibility I am sure that the demand for abortion would greatly decrease. I believe that a time is coming when unborn children will have a far, far, far, far, far higher valuation placed on them than is the case at this time. Images of the electrical behavior of the brain of the unborn at, for example, seven weeks, may help us to better understand the seriousness of this subject.
Electrical impulses can be found in jello. How serious is jello? Children/people/adults/teenagers/the elderly have the same value they've always had and that's only whatever other's place on them. . A fetus has only the value the person it's in gives it...as it should be since that life affects only them.. Wouldn't it be better to place more value on actual people? Why not fight to end wars....we wouldn't have any if men were more responsible. BTW, does Tecoyah know you are quoting his post?????
I wish to point out that I am obviously Pro-Choice and this is from a debate where I was purposefully playing a Pro-Life person as a way of explaining how predictable they are.
More likely the individual simply lacked the understanding and motivation to actually read the full content of the thread he took this from....he asked my permission to post tis data but did not tell me how.
Human brainwave activity has been researched in the fetus and did not show anything even approaching what could possibly be considered "thought" until long after six months.
I am somewhat Pro-Choice...... But I am mostly Pro-Life....... when I first read your comments on the subject I was kind of shocked..... and amazed to think that you could be rather close to me on this topic. I love the way that you wrote this because by not being absolutely dogmatic and simplistic on this...... you are getting at important parts of this that many tend to overlook.
I have read some pretty impressive material on the foetus experiencing pain at seven or eight weeks........ Perhaps recoiling away from pain..... doesn't fit your definition of "thought"....... but it certainly does seem significant to me.
I immediately invited Tecoyah over to this discussion so that he could clarify his position both for my benefit as well as for anybody else reading this.... ... he is an astonishingly good writer and I really do have trouble figuring out when he is serious and when he is making a joke......... I also invited his opponent over here..... In the opening post... do you notice the words....."Tecoyah said?" Do you see an up arrow to the right of those words........... click it and see what happens? You will be taken back to the exact conversation in which he presented this argument.
While the presence of thalamocortical fibers is necessary for pain perception, their mere presence is insufficient—this pathway must also be functional. It has been proposed that transient, functional thalamocortical circuits may form via subplate neurons around midgestation, but no human study has demonstrated this early functionality. Instead, constant SEPs appear at 29 weeks’ PCA, and EEG patterns denoting wakefulness appear around 30 weeks’ PCA. Both of these tests of cortical function suggest that conscious perception of pain does not begin before the third trimester. Cutaneous withdrawal reflexes and hormonal stress responses present earlier in development are not explicit or sufficient evidence of pain perception because they are not specific to noxious stimuli and are not cortically mediated. http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/201429
So then you mean that the foetus going to rather drastic measures, (for a foetus), to avoid pain..... and death..... does not to your thinking qualify as "thought?" Do you doubt the accuracy of the statistics in the following web page: http://www.abortionfacts.com/books/why-cant-we-love-them-both Why Can't We Love Them Both? Editor's Note: Please visit our home page for a full listing of abortion facts. (Questions and Answers About Abortion) - John C. Willke, MD & Barbara H. Willke, RN ...... ......
I would be interested in your reaction to the specific statements from a medical professional that I quote in post #12?
Yes... I immediately let Tecoyah know that I was quoting him, frankly I asked his permission before beginning this discussion with that quotation from him. I personally.... due to my research on the paranormal, on near death experiences, on para-psychology, or psychic phenomena..... am open to the possibility that millions of the people on earth at this time could perhaps be my own great, great, great, great....... grand daughters and grand sons from one or more of my possible past lives.......... so I have a duty to put forward the theory that each human life..... may perhaps have something resembling nearly INFINITE VALUE..... to an intelligence or intelligences that probably exist in fundamental or nearly fundamental energy........... and this increased valuation of human life could produce such a massive boosting of the world economy that perhaps ninety nine percent of young mothers may perhaps freely decided to NOT have an abortion........ because they will no longer feel nearly condemned to a life of poverty if they decided to give birth to their child....... So I actually am working on what you suggest FoxHastings!
Even Oskar Schindler could accurately be accused of being less than one hundred percent truthful...... one hundred percent of the time....... Here is some background information on my plan to radically increase the valuation that is placed on all human life....... both born as well as unborn.......... http://www.politicalforum.com/index...begin-in-matter-or-fundamental-energy.465052/ Where did Intelligence begin, in matter or fundamental energy?
Does pain exist without the ability to recognize hat it is? If a tree falls in the woods and no one is around.....does it make noise?
I don't see how anyone can claim to be pro-choice while at the same time wanting to stop people acting on their choice. Nobody legally needs another person's approval, and nor should they.
A. NO, you have no duty to put forward any theory on human life especially any that interferes with other people's rights. B. NO, more people on earth will NOT help the economy.
Please provide sources for those allegations. I am not aware of any such study myself and fetal development at that age is very rudimentary. Medically induced abortions are no different to miscarriages and occur during the 1st trimester. It is only in the 2nd semester that surgical abortions occur and they are always done under anesthetic which means that the fetus is numbed and cannot feel any pain.
When you or I were five years old and burned our hands....... how could you tell that we felt pain? We rapidly pulled our hands away from the stove or match or cigarette lighter that had burned us. The behavior of the foetus, at eight weeks, certainly indicates that it feels pain and reacts much like we would several years after our birth. http://www.abortionfacts.com/books/why-cant-we-love-them-both Chapter 14 - Fetal Pain ......
This source is quite impressive... just scroll down to chapter 14...... http://www.abortionfacts.com/books/why-cant-we-love-them-both
I claim only to be somewhat pro-choice...... which is a somewhat new thing for me....... Five years ago I simply described myself as Pro-Life period...... but then the connection between the massive suicide at Masada between expectant mother who do decide to have an abortion occurred to me and I modified my position somewhat. http://www.abortionfacts.com/books/why-cant-we-love-them-both chapter 14 continued.......
I'm pretty sure I did one hell of a lot more than reflexively pull my hand away. I am also EXTREMELY sure that the pain I felt was a result of my nerves sending signals to my brain....which required me to have the nerves and the brain as well as the Thalmus and connection to the nervous system, which are not developed in a fetus until after about six months.
Piffle. Roe versus Wade ties trimesters to fetal viability. In the next 20 or 30 years, we'll crack the problems with transplanting a fetus to a host uterus - whether another woman, a mammal, or biomechanical. @ that point, most abortions will be moot. Of course, that assumes that the state steps in & makes the investments in medical, biology, hormonal, genetic, selective permeable membranes, blood, the chemistry in utero & on & on. Costs will be high @ the beginning of rollout. That happens a lot, it's a matter of gestation/evolution of tech. @ least, we'll mostly be done with this endless questing after personhood for the fetus.
"The decision in the case of Roe v. Wade changed American law on abortion. It permits abortion at the request of the woman without restriction in the first trimester and, with some restrictions intended to protect her health, in the second trimester. It allows states to forbid abortion in the third trimester, except when there’s a serious threat to the life or health of the woman. In the 1989 Webster decision, the Supreme Court declined explicitly to overturn Roe v. Wade but in effect invited the 50 state legislatures to decide for themselves. What was the reasoning in Roe v. Wade? There was no legal weight given to what happens to the children once they are born, or to the family. Instead, a woman’s right to reproductive freedom is protected, the court ruled, by constitutional guarantees of privacy. But that right is not unqualified. The woman’s guarantee of privacy and the fetus’s right to life must be weighed–and when the court did the weighing’ priority was given to privacy in the first trimester and to life in the third. The transition was decided not from any of the considerations we have been dealing with so far…–not when “ensoulment” occurs, not when the fetus takes on sufficient human characteristics to be protected by laws against murder. Instead, the criterion adopted was whether the fetus could live outside the mother. This is called “viability” and depends in part on the ability to breathe. The lungs are simply not developed, and the fetus cannot breathe–no matter how advanced an artificial lung it might be placed in—until about the 24th week, near the start of the sixth month. This is why Roe v. Wade permits the states to prohibit abortions in the last trimester. It’s a very pragmatic criterion."