We are at a stalemate in the country and in congress A sizeable number of Americans (along with aliens who vote illegally) want open borders and amnesty for everyone There is an opposite group such as myself who want very strict and severe policies and no illegal aliens at all Both groups have enough strength to stop the other but not enough support to enact their policy You have the right idea about compromise But the open borders crowd to do so
In that case I'll mark you down for the following for now: C0,C1,E0,E1,E2 Make sure to check out the other options though, just in case there's anything else you want to add. -Meta
Only ideologues are incapable of seeing the world in any light other than their ideology. The problem is not left or right or center or socialists, or conservatives, or progressives, or ....any political position.... The problem is anybody with any of those positions who has reached the stage of being a blind ideologue.
Why don't you show me another belief and try to get me to see it? I've been trying to get you to see my belief and you refuse to. Enlighten me. Show me a position and tell me why it is superior to mine. Where does the pass giving start?
You didn't get it. Let me restate it differently. We all need to have a basic ideology. My ideology may or may not be better than yours. Maybe yours is better, maybe mine... That's not the point. Ideology should ever be the decisive factor. Ideology should only help you describe what you believe should be done. Not determine it. Only ideologues follow ideology blindly. To take a position about any particular issue, the first consideration is "What is the right thing to do?". Not "What does my ideology dictate we should do?". Ideology should never trump doing the right thing/ Meaning what is best for the country (if you're a patriot), or what is the best for me (if you're not) Ideologues are popular because those who follow them don't feel the need to make the mental effort necessary to determine what the right thing to do is. "Deport them all!" says the ideologue. Never mind questions like "shy" or "how" or ... what consequences that would bring. Answering those questions require an intellectual effort. And ideologues help you avoid making such effort.
FYI, here are the recorded votes so far: Spoiler: Votes So Far F0,E1,E2,H2,J0,N2,N3,N1,J1,G2,I0,G0,K0,K1,G4,G3,R,Q,M0,N0,S,E0,A3,G5,B2,C3,G7,D4,D2,D1,C2,C1,L0,G6,H1,I1,T,N4,D0,C0,A2,A1,B1,H3,B3,B0,A0,H0 A3,B2,B3,C3,C5,D4,E3 J1,J0,O,N5,N1,N0,N2,N3,N5,G4,A2,B2,C3,D4 A1,B1,C0,D0,E1,F0,G0,G4,G7,H2,I1,K0,K1,L0,M0,N0,N1,N2,N3 N5,N2,A2,C2,D2,E2,J0,F0 G1,G3,G6,A3,B3,B2,C3,C5,D4,E3,I2 A3,B2,B3,C3,C5,D4,E3 A3,B2,B3,C3,C5,D4,E3 J0,K1,M0,M1,N0,N1,N2,N3,A3,B2,C3,C2,C4,D2,D4,E1,F0,G0,G2,G5,G6,H1,H2,I0,I1,K0,R,S A3,B2,D4,G0,G2,G6,H3,J0,J1,K1,N0,N1,N2,N3,N4,N5,O,P A2,B1,C0,D2,E0,F0,G4,G7,H0,K0,N2,N3,Q,R,S E0,E1,E2,C1,C0 -Meta
Let me revise mine, because I didn't actually rank my votes. Here it is with ranking. F0 - C0 - D2 - E0 - H0 - A2 - B1 - K0 - S - R - G4 - G7 - Q - N3 - N2
@TheGreatSatan, @Junkieturtle, @Appleo, @Robert, @Zorro Did you folks want to amend your votes too? As, like Golem's yours also appear to be potentially un-ranked as well. Or did you want to just leave them as is? Either way its fine with me. If you want a change though, just let me know soon, as I'll be posting the final results shortly. -Meta
No thx. I hope you get the results you want. Seems like you put in a lot of effort into this and that's kinda cool.
OK, got it, and thanks! As for what results I want, I just want to get results which maximize the number of people who are satisfied with those results. A combination of immigration-related policy proposals which, when fed into a comprehensive plan, lead to the greatest number of individuals who can agree with or accept that resulting plan as a compromise. ...Oh and,... I guess I would also like to see some interesting results... ones that highlight the differences between the three vote tallying methods (like in the abortion ranked vote). Because then, we also get to argue (with relevant and familiar data) about which method is best, and why. Anyways... standby for final results on this immigration vote. -Meta
I have stood by this for what seems like forever. I would encourage the USA to mine the border. This nation has a very uneven law when it comes to employers. To blame the employer seems unfair. I do not support blaming the employer. They are not government experts and lack government tools.
Meta, sorry that I did not satisfy your poll. I think my vote was amounting to putting the onus on the illegals to obey laws as to entry into the USA. Law breakers do not get my approval. They create a problem. We need to remove them much faster. I do not have time now to rank this.
Phew! Well, its finally done. Thanks a whole lot to everyone who participated!! This was a long one. A lot of options to consider, much discussion, and a lot of time to get here, but its finally done. So... Here are the results: The top overall winning option is... N2. Add More towers, cameras, ground sensors, radiation detectors, drones, other aircraft, ships, and radars on the borders Second place goes to A3. Undocumented Adult Who Snuck In: Deported. Third place is a three-way tie between the following: B2. Visa Holders Who Overstayed: Deported and Banned from Reentry if Overage Over a yr J0. Crack down on employers of undocumented immigrants with stiffer penalties and more aggressive enforcement N3. Add New Ports of Entry along the borders. Expanded inspection lanes at high volume southern border ports of entry And taking all results into account, here is what the politicalforum consensus position on the immigration issue would look like... Note that I've split things up into three different tiers: Tier 1: These are the top options as voted on by us. The options for which there is pretty broad support for. Any comprehensive immigration compromise plan would pretty much have to include these... More towers, cameras, ground sensors, radiation detectors, drones, other aircraft, ships, and radars on the borders New Ports of Entry along the borders Expanded inspection lanes at high volume southern border ports of entry Deport any undocumented adults or unaccompanied children who sneak or who have snuk into the country Deport children/parents who sneak in together but require they be kept together at every stage in the deportation process Deport and ban from reentry Visa Holders who overstay their visas if the overage is over a year Crack down on employers of undocumented immigrants with stiffer penalties and more aggressive enforcement Establish a Conditional Path to Citizenship for current Dreamers (DACA recipients) Increase # of Border Agents to min of 38,405 Improve Coordination between CBP and Local Law Enforcement Add roughly 350 new Miles of border Fencing for a total of 700 Miles Tier 2: These options have less support than the previous ones, but still a lot more support for than against based on the votes, and many of which necessary to include if we want the compromise proposal to be fully comprehensive... Increase H1B Visas for Temporary Seasonal Workers Make H1B Visa program a first come first serve waiting list instead of a lottery New immigration judges and attorneys New Court Training and Technology Change to 7 years of Service instead of 12 for Military Green Card Reduced Green Card requirements if Involved in Combat Situation while serving in Military Discontinue Allowing Parents and or Siblings to count as Family for Green Cards Streamline Visa Application and Petitioning Process Reinstate the Family Case Management Program Increase Limits for Educational, Advanced Degrees, and or Exceptional Talent Based Visas Require All Employers to Utilize an e-Verify System Grant Conditional Temporary Residency Status to Asylum Seekers/Refugees Income tax increase to pay for reforms Tier 3: These options have relatively little support, but yet aren't contradicted by any of the higher ranked options. They aren't necessary to make a proposal comprehensive, but imo would be good to add. So I would say they should be thought of as optional options, good if they are included, but no big deal if they're not... Provide Financial, Volunteer, and or Other Aid to Mexico and South/Central American Countries to Help them Improve their Countries End Permanent Visa Lottery Program Make any new policies widely known in Mexico and South/Central America Establish a Fast Track to Citizenship for Legal Immigrants Coordinate w/Mexico to specify how many asylum seekers/refugees each country will take in Pull Federal Funding from Sanctuary Cities and or apply fines until they dissolve their sanctuary status So what do you folks think? Do you feel that the consensus position would be a decent outcome? If not, do you think that it would at least be acceptable as a compromise between yourself and those who disagree with you regarding the ideal? Would you be willing to accept certain tiers but not others? And assuming we were to think of this consensus comprehensive compromise proposal as more of a starting point for further negotiations, what items might you then exchange to and from the list to improve it while still maintaining its status as a compromise? To make things a bit easier to read and interpret, I added a fourth column to the results image. Its the same as the first column, Ranked Pairs, but I darkened out options which are contradicted by higher ranked options. The remaining un-darkened options are what were used to construct the above consensus proposal. Spoiler: Results Results (Ranked Pairs - Plurality - Instant Runoff - Ranked Pairs): Spoiler: Ballots Spoiler: Options A0. Undocumented Adult Who Snuck In: Unconditional Path to Citizenship Granted A1. Undocumented Adult Who Snuck In: Conditional Path to Citizenship Granted A2. Undocumented Adult Who Snuck In: Conditional Temporary Residency Status Granted A3. Undocumented Adult Who Snuck In: Deported B0. Visa Holders Who Overstayed: Unconditional Path to Citizenship Granted B1. Visa Holders Who Overstayed: Conditional Path to Citizenship Granted B2. Visa Holders Who Overstayed: Deported and Banned from Reentry if Overage Over a yr B3. Visa Holders Who Overstayed: Deported and Banned from Reentry regardless of degree C0. Children Brought by Parent: Unconditional Path to Citizenship Granted C1. Children Brought by Parent: Conditional Path to Citizenship Granted C2. Children Brought by Parent: Conditional Temporary Residency Status Granted C3. Children Brought by Parent: Deported w/Parent C4. Children Brought by Parent: Internment Camp/Tender Age Shelter C5. Children Brought by Parent: Deported D0. Unaccompanied Child Who Snuck In: Unconditional Path to Citizenship Granted D1. Unaccompanied Child Who Snuck In: Conditional Path to Citizenship Granted D2. Unaccompanied Child Who Snuck In: Conditional Temporary Residency Status Granted D3. Unaccompanied Child Who Snuck In: Internment Camp D4. Unaccompanied Child Who Snuck In: Deported E0. Dreamers: Unconditional Path to Citizenship Granted E1. Dreamers: Conditional Path to Citizenship Granted E2. Dreamers: Conditional Temporary Residency Status Granted E3. Dreamers: Deported F0. Require children/parents kept together (ie. deport immediately, released on bond w/ankle bracelet, or detained together) G0. Increase H1B Visas for Temporary Seasonal Workers and or Make it a first come first serve waiting list instead of a lottery G1. End H1B Temporary Work Visa Program G2. Increase Limits for Educational, Advanced Degrees, and or Exceptional Talent Based Visas G3. End Permanent Visa Lottery Program G4. Change to 7 years of Service instead of 12 for Military GrCard and or Reduced requirements if Involved in Combat Situation while serving G5. Reduce Limits on Green Cards for Children/Spouses/Parents of Legal Immigrants/Citizens G6. Discontinue Allowing Parents and or Siblings to count as Family for Green Cards G7. Keep Visa and Green Card Programs as they are H0. Asylum Seekers/Refugees: Unconditional Path to Citizenship Granted H1. Asylum Seekers/Refugees: Conditional Path to Citizenship Granted H2. Asylum Seekers/Refugees: Conditional Temporary Residency Status Granted H3. Asylum Seekers/Refugee: Require Applications be made in writing from country of origin H4. Asylum Seekers/Refugees: Should be Turned Away or Deported H5. Asylum Seekers/Refugees: Should be sent to Internment Camps I0. New Visa programs (eg. point based merit system, agri/constr specific, foreign entrepreneurs, or immigrants improving country of origin) I1. Legal Immigrants should be afforded a fast track to citizenship I2. Amend 14th amendment, require legal guardian to be citizen/PermResident for citizenship to be automatic at birth J0. Crack down on employers of undocumented immigrants with stiffer penalties and more aggressive enforcement J1. Require All Employers to Utilize an e-Verify System K0. Streamline Visa Application and Petitioning Process and or Reinstate the Family Case Management Program K1. Add new immigration judges and attorneys and new Court Training and Technology to improve efficiency and reduce backlogs L0. Keep ICE as is (20K Agents, 226-240K Internal Deportations Annually) L1. Abolish ICE M0. Income tax increase included as part of legislation to pay for reforms M1. Leave Pay-fors Out of legislation N0. Increase # of Border Agents to min of 38,405 and Improve Coordination between CBP and Local Law Enforcement N1. Add roughly 350 new Miles of border Fencing for a total of 700 Miles N2. Add More towers, cameras, ground sensors, radiation detectors, drones, other aircraft, ships, and radars on the borders N3. Add New Ports of Entry along the borders. Expanded inspection lanes at high volume southern border ports of entry N4. Keep border security as is (353 Miles of Primary Fencing, Observation Towers, 20K Patrol Agents) N5. Build a Wall O. Pull Federal Funding from Sanctuary Cities and or apply fines until they dissolve their sanctuary status P. Compulsory Voter ID Program Q. Coordinate w/Mexico to specify how many asylum seekers/refugees each country will take in R. Provide Financial, Volunteer, and or Other Aid to Mexico and South/Central American Countries to Help them Improve their Countries S. Make any new policies widely known in Mexico and South/Central America T. Leave Immigration System the Way it is (Status Quo) Nothing particularly interesting to note between the different voting methods (unfortunately), at least as compared to the abortion vote. Plurality and Instant Runoff were pretty boring this time around, though there is at least a bit of interesting analysis to be had when looking at how Ranked Pairs compares. i.e. why N2 does better there and why F0 does quite a bit worse. And I guess it should also be noted that there are a couple circular victories in those results. I don't think we've seen that before, at least not among the highest ranked option in past votes. For example, while N2 is the overall winner, it actually gets beaten in a two-way run by N1 which itself gets beaten by A3 which in turn is beaten by N2 to bring us full circle. Fascinating! amirite? Ranked Vote: Discussion Thread Spoiler: Ranked Vote Notification List If you want to be added to the list (or taken off), go to this thread and make a post and or vote in the poll: http://www.politicalforum.com/index.php?threads/ranked-vote-contact-list.534668/ @Derideo_Te @Pollycy @fifthofnovember @redeemer216 @BahamaBob @modernpaladin @yiostheoy @Spooky @Jonsa @Crawdadr @Longshot @Distraff @Moi621 @Seth Bullock @Thought Criminal @jmblt2000 @61falcon @mamooth @Chronocide Fiend @Merwen @Bob0627 @fmw @clg311 @Mac-7 @APACHERAT @kazenatsu @Socialism Works @Moonglow @FreshAir @rtts48 @perdidochas @Bridget @Bowerbird @scarlet witch @Andrew Jackson @Sallyally @Kode @crank @Bluesguy @AlifQadr @tealwings @Capt Nice @Moriah @Ndividual @wyly @Woogs @DennisTate @Ritter @Junkieturtle @cerberus @Homer J Thompson @JohnnyMo @Smartmouthwoman @ARDY @reallybigjohnson @Falena @PatrickT @StillBlue @JakeStarkey @Nerd of Liberty @drluggit @PARTIZAN1 @Aleksander Ulyanov @Canell @The Rhetoric of Life @Lucifer @vman12 @btthegreat @Mr_Truth @JakeJ @DoctorWho@Loving91390 @Lee S Again many thanks to everyone who participated!! Wouldn't have been able to do this without you! -Meta