Ranked Vote: How To Enact Immigration Reform? (Consolidated)

Winner: More towers, cameras, ground sensors, radiation detectors, drones, other aircraft, ships, and radars on the borders
(click for detailed results)

Ranked Vote: Discussion Thread

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OK, trying this another time, following up on advice from you guys, I've gone through and consolidated and simplified things down for this vote as much as I could. So just one thread to worry about this time around, and number of options brought down significantly. I wanted to reduce the option number even further, but couldn't really find a good way to do it without what I felt would be removing too much choice from the poll, so hopefully the resulting number of options is OK and everything works out.

BTW, for anyone who isn't aware, this is a vote on immigration, specifically a Ranked Vote. I'm asking politicalforum members to specify which options from the following list you would most like to see included within a comprehensive immigration plan.

To participate in this vote, simply
cast your ballot by making a post in this thread with a list of the option labels sorted in your order of preference.
(Rank as few or as many as you feel inclined to, though the more you rank, the more likely your vote is to have an impact on the final results)

Spoiler: Example Ballot:

H2, H4, I3, J0, J1, J2, K1, L3, M4, N5, O6, P5, Q3

How To Enact Immigration Reform? (Consolidated)

A0. Undocumented Adult Who Snuck In: Unconditional Path to Citizenship Granted
A1. Undocumented Adult Who Snuck In: Conditional Path to Citizenship Granted
A2. Undocumented Adult Who Snuck In: Conditional Temporary Residency Status Granted
A3. Undocumented Adult Who Snuck In: Deported
B0. Visa Holders Who Overstayed: Unconditional Path to Citizenship Granted
B1. Visa Holders Who Overstayed: Conditional Path to Citizenship Granted
B2. Visa Holders Who Overstayed: Deported and Banned from Reentry if Overage Over a yr
B3. Visa Holders Who Overstayed: Deported and Banned from Reentry regardless of degree
C0. Children Brought by Parent: Unconditional Path to Citizenship Granted
C1. Children Brought by Parent: Conditional Path to Citizenship Granted
C2. Children Brought by Parent: Conditional Temporary Residency Status Granted
C3. Children Brought by Parent: Deported w/Parent
C4. Children Brought by Parent: Internment Camp/Tender Age Shelter
C5. Children Brought by Parent: Deported
D0. Unaccompanied Child Who Snuck In: Unconditional Path to Citizenship Granted
D1. Unaccompanied Child Who Snuck In: Conditional Path to Citizenship Granted
D2. Unaccompanied Child Who Snuck In: Conditional Temporary Residency Status Granted
D3. Unaccompanied Child Who Snuck In: Internment Camp
D4. Unaccompanied Child Who Snuck In: Deported
E0. Dreamers: Unconditional Path to Citizenship Granted
E1. Dreamers: Conditional Path to Citizenship Granted
E2. Dreamers: Conditional Temporary Residency Status Granted
E3. Dreamers: Deported
F0. Require children/parents kept together (ie. deport immediately, released on bond w/ankle bracelet, or detained together)
G0. Increase H1B Visas for Temporary Seasonal Workers and or Make it a first come first serve waiting list instead of a lottery
G1. End H1B Temporary Work Visa Program
G2. Increase Limits for Educational, Advanced Degrees, and or Exceptional Talent Based Visas
G3. End Permanent Visa Lottery Program
G4. Change to 7 years of Service instead of 12 for Military GrCard and or Reduced requirements if Involved in Combat Situation while serving
G5. Reduce Limits on Green Cards for Children/Spouses/Parents of Legal Immigrants/Citizens
G6. Discontinue Allowing Parents and or Siblings to count as Family for Green Cards
G7. Keep Visa and Green Card Programs as they are
H0. Asylum Seekers/Refugees: Unconditional Path to Citizenship Granted
H1. Asylum Seekers/Refugees: Conditional Path to Citizenship Granted
H2. Asylum Seekers/Refugees: Conditional Temporary Residency Status Granted
H3. Asylum Seekers/Refugee: Require Applications be made in writing from country of origin
H4. Asylum Seekers/Refugees: Should be Turned Away or Deported
H5. Asylum Seekers/Refugees: Should be sent to Internment Camps
I0. New Visa programs (eg. point based merit system, agri/constr specific, foreign entrepreneurs, or immigrants improving country of origin)
I1. Legal Immigrants should be afforded a fast track to citizenship
I2. Amend 14th amendment, require legal guardian to be citizen/PermResident for citizenship to be automatic at birth
J0. Crack down on employers of undocumented immigrants with stiffer penalties and more aggressive enforcement
J1. Require All Employers to Utilize an e-Verify System
K0. Streamline Visa Application and Petitioning Process and or Reinstate the Family Case Management Program
K1. Add new immigration judges and attorneys and new Court Training and Technology to improve efficiency and reduce backlogs
L0. Keep ICE as is (20K Agents, 226-240K Internal Deportations Annually)
L1. Abolish ICE
M0. Income tax increase included as part of legislation to pay for reforms
M1. Leave Pay-fors Out of legislation
N0. Increase # of Border Agents to min of 38,405 and Improve Coordination between CBP and Local Law Enforcement
N1. Add roughly 350 new Miles of border Fencing for a total of 700 Miles
N2. Add More towers, cameras, ground sensors, radiation detectors, drones, other aircraft, ships, and radars on the borders
N3. Add New Ports of Entry along the borders. Expanded inspection lanes at high volume southern border ports of entry
N4. Keep border security as is (353 Miles of Primary Fencing, Observation Towers, 20K Patrol Agents)
N5. Build a Wall
O. Pull Federal Funding from Sanctuary Cities and or apply fines until they dissolve their sanctuary status
P. Compulsory Voter ID Program
Q. Coordinate w/Mexico to specify how many asylum seekers/refugees each country will take in
R. Provide Financial, Volunteer, and or Other Aid to Mexico and South/Central American Countries to Help them Improve their Countries
S. Make any new policies widely known in Mexico and South/Central America
T. Leave Immigration System the Way it is (Status Quo)
​

Also... not at all needed to cast a vote, but just in case anyone is interested in knowing some of the specific consolidations combinations and assumptions I made to shorten up the list, then here you go:

Spoiler: Consolidations

Children And Infant Categories Combined
Specific Conditions No Longer Spelled Out As Separate Options
Path To Citizenship Options Consolidated into two, either with conditions or unconditional
Residency Status Options Consolidated into one
Deportation Options Consolidated into one
Minor Consolidation for Visa Overstays
A little Rewording of Some Items
Removal of Military Option for Unaccompanied Children, Since its sort of covered in the Visa Section
Visa Program Status Quo Options Combined into One Overall Visa Status Quo Option
Removed Section on Crime/Language. Assuming most folks are OK with deporting as current law prescribes
Combined the two 14th amendment options
Minor Consolidation for Visa Application and Petitioning Process Options
Court Training and Tech combined into Judges and Attorney Option
Removed Border Escort Option. Assuming that its pretty close to the deportation options
Consolidated Sanctuary City Related Options Into One
Removed Personal Fine Options
Removed Some Other Options Which are Partially covered Elsewhere
Combined Education and Talent Based Visa Options
Removed Options for Family Members of Immigrants in the Military. Assuming most folks are OK with the way things are
New Visa Program Options Combined into One
Foreign coordination and outreach options consolidated
Consolidated Familiy Member Options

Spoiler: Ranked Vote Notification List

This list is for sending out notifications for whenever new Ranked Votes are set up.
If you want to be added to the list (or taken off of it) please visit the following thread:
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-Meta

 

Here's my updated vote based on the new options...

F0,E1,E2,H2,J0,N2,N3,N1,J1,G2,I0,G0,K0,K1,G4,G3,R,Q,M0,N0,S,E0,A3,G5,B2,C3,G7,D4,D2,D1,C2,C1,L0,G6,H1,I1,T,N4,D0,C0,A2,A1,B1,H3,B3,B0,A0,H0

F0. Require children/parents kept together (ie. deport immediately, released on bond w/ankle bracelet, or detained together)
E1. Dreamers: Conditional Path to Citizenship Granted
E2. Dreamers: Conditional Temporary Residency Status Granted
H2. Asylum Seekers/Refugees: Conditional Temporary Residency Status Granted
J0. Crack down on employers of undocumented immigrants with stiffer penalties and more aggressive enforcement
N2. Add More towers, cameras, ground sensors, radiation detectors, drones, other aircraft, ships, and radars on the borders
N3. Add New Ports of Entry along the borders. Expanded inspection lanes at high volume southern border ports of entry
N1. Add roughly 350 new Miles of border Fencing for a total of 700 Miles
J1. Require All Employers to Utilize an e-Verify System
G2. Increase Limits for Educational, Advanced Degrees, and or Exceptional Talent Based Visas
I0. New Visa programs (eg. point based merit system, agri/constr specific, foreign entrepreneurs, or immigrants improving country of origin)
G0. Increase H1B Visas for Temporary Seasonal Workers and or Make it a first come first serve waiting list instead of a lottery
K0. Streamline Visa Application and Petitioning Process and or Reinstate the Family Case Management Program
K1. Add new immigration judges and attorneys and new Court Training and Technology to improve efficiency and reduce backlogs
G4. Change to 7 years of Service instead of 12 for Military GrCard and or Reduced requirements if Involved in Combat Situation while serving
G3. End Permanent Visa Lottery Program
R. Provide Financial, Volunteer, and or Other Aid to Mexico and South/Central American Countries to Help them Improve their Countries
Q. Coordinate w/Mexico to specify how many asylum seekers/refugees each country will take in
M0. Income tax increase included as part of legislation to pay for reforms
N0. Increase # of Border Agents to min of 38,405 and Improve Coordination between CBP and Local Law Enforcement
S. Make any new policies widely known in Mexico and South/Central America
E0. Dreamers: Unconditional Path to Citizenship Granted
A3. Undocumented Adult Who Snuck In: Deported
G5. Reduce Limits on Green Cards for Children/Spouses/Parents of Legal Immigrants/Citizens
B2. Visa Holders Who Overstayed: Deported and Banned from Reentry if Overage Over a yr
C3. Children Brought by Parent: Deported w/Parent
G7. Keep Visa and Green Card Programs as they are
D4. Unaccompanied Child Who Snuck In: Deported
D2. Unaccompanied Child Who Snuck In: Conditional Temporary Residency Status Granted
D1. Unaccompanied Child Who Snuck In: Conditional Path to Citizenship Granted
C2. Children Brought by Parent: Conditional Temporary Residency Status Granted
C1. Children Brought by Parent: Conditional Path to Citizenship Granted
L0. Keep ICE as is (20K Agents, 226-240K Internal Deportations Annually)
G6. Discontinue Allowing Parents and or Siblings to count as Family for Green Cards
H1. Asylum Seekers/Refugees: Conditional Path to Citizenship Granted
I1. Legal Immigrants should be afforded a fast track to citizenship

T. Leave Immigration System the Way it is (Status Quo)
N4. Keep border security as is (353 Miles of Primary Fencing, Observation Towers, 20K Patrol Agents)

D0. Unaccompanied Child Who Snuck In: Unconditional Path to Citizenship Granted
C0. Children Brought by Parent: Unconditional Path to Citizenship Granted
A2. Undocumented Adult Who Snuck In: Conditional Temporary Residency Status Granted
A1. Undocumented Adult Who Snuck In: Conditional Path to Citizenship Granted
B1. Visa Holders Who Overstayed: Conditional Path to Citizenship Granted
H3. Asylum Seekers/Refugee: Require Applications be made in writing from country of origin
B3. Visa Holders Who Overstayed: Deported and Banned from Reentry regardless of degree
B0. Visa Holders Who Overstayed: Unconditional Path to Citizenship Granted
A0. Undocumented Adult Who Snuck In: Unconditional Path to Citizenship Granted
H0. Asylum Seekers/Refugees: Unconditional Path to Citizenship Granted

-Meta

 

Hmm... still a pretty long list, and still took over 30 minutes for me to rank the whole thing,
but I guess on an issue like this that's just the way it is. Still, if anyone happens to have
any thoughts on the list or on how things could be simplified further, suggestions would be welcome.

-Meta

 

So no thoughts,... no suggestions... no votes... ?
Though that wasn't completely unexpected given previous discussions on this subject.
But still, I'm curious to know what some of the specific reasons are?

Is the list still too long? The method too confusing? Do the options need to be simplified more?
Or have they perhaps already been simplified a little too much?
Or is it the issue itself which makes it difficult for one to state their preferences?

-Meta

 

Of course... I have my own thoughts on that too...

 

But before that, maybe I should explain why I voted the way I did...

As I'm sure is painfully apparent by now, the immigration issue as a whole is somewhat complicated.
Complicated in the sense that there are a lot of different categories related to immigration that need to be considered.
Personally though, I feel that the top things that any comprehensive immigration plan needs to do are the following:
Ensure that human rights are not inadvertently violated by the policies and that human life is preserved,
while eliminating incentives for illegal immigration, and effectively securing the border to prevent it.
And also making sure that reasonable avenues exist for immigrants who want to legally do things by the books,
work hard, and earn the privilege of entering... particularly I think that Visa programs should be shifted to become more merit based.
I also believe that something really ought to be done about the Dreamers. It doesn't make any sense to keep them in some sort of limbo status, especially when deciding what to do about them would likely be the easiest part of any immigration plan.

This is why the options granting Dreamers some sort of legal status tops my list, along with the options for shoring up the border, also granting legal status to asylum seekers/refugees, getting employers to clean up their act, and making sure we aren't separating families.

So... does anyone agree with my views on this? Disagree? Indifferent??

-Meta

 

That would be the following options:

A3, B2, B3, C3, C5, and I'm assuming based on what you wrote, D4 and E3 as well.​

A3. Undocumented Adult Who Snuck In: Deported
B2. Visa Holders Who Overstayed: Deported and Banned from Reentry if Overage Over a yr
B3. Visa Holders Who Overstayed: Deported and Banned from Reentry regardless of degree
C3. Children Brought by Parent: Deported w/Parent
C5. Children Brought by Parent: Deported
D4. Unaccompanied Child Who Snuck In: Deported
E3. Dreamers: Deported

This is similar to some options that got removed due to being similar to the sanctuary city option,
but its also a bit different. Either way, I can add it to your vote as a write-in.

-Meta

 

Anyone else want to chime in?...

 

C'mon folks, on a topic like this one, I know TheGreatSatan and I can't be the only two people with an opinion on this.

-Meta

 

Nice! + =
Hope they put a brewery in near me one of these days.

 

In another thread a poster suggested that enforcing the current law was all that was needed on immigration.
To which I questioned them... what does the law say on Dreamers, what does it say on increasing Security on our Borders,
on Splitting Up Families? On Requiring an e-Verify system? Asylum Seekers/Refugees, Ensuring Process Efficiency? etc. etc.

And its just like I said there, the issue of immigration isn't nearly as simple as some folks keep trying to make it out to be.
I wouldn't say its rocket science or anything like that, but if we want to actually fix our immigration system,
we're going to need to do at least a little bit more than just enforce current law.

Obviously, whatever the law is, it should be enforced, but we also need to figure out what we actually want the law to be.

-Meta

 

This issue, unfortunately, is one that spans beyond any one single election.
And either way though, a supermajority is not what's needed to resolve it.
If people could come together and compromise, a resolution could easily
be found despite whatever the particular breakdown of congress was.

But it likely wont be solved if we just sit back and ignore the issue.
It wont be solved if we refuse to discuss it. It wont be solved if the people/
a majority of the average every day citizens themselves do not want compromise.
But if on the other hand, the people do want compromise... if they do want this to be solved,
they can force change in this area... they have the power, if enough folks would only find the courage to try.

If politicians refuse to compromise, even in opposition to the demands of the citizens,
then the whole lot of them should be kicked out of office and replaced with people who will.
But again, as for us everyday citizens, we should be doing our part to find compromise amongst ourselves,
so as to know what a realistic compromise actually looks like, and to show our elected leaders how its done.

-Meta

 

I can't speak for democrats, but here's how I look at things. I try and see it from the perspective of the Dreamers themselves. Think about it, these are a group of people who themselves did not do anything wrong. They were brought here years ago as children or infants, 8, 5, 3 years old or even younger. They've lived in this country for 15 or 20 years. Basically have grown up/spent their whole lives living as Americans (sic). Following the laws of this country, getting an education, making sure all their papers are in order with the authorities. Essentially American citizens in all but title.

They speak like us, dress like us, attend the same sports games that we do. And yet, after all these years we're just going to pluck them out of the life they've known and send them off to a country they aren't even familiar with? One in which they may not even speak the language? How would you feel, if one day the government decided to forcefully send you off to a foreign country you've never lived in because of something your parents did decades ago that you had no control over?

I understand that you don't want to reward folks for their parent's bad actions either, but you shouldn't think of it like that. Instead consider that what we really don't want to do, is to punish people for the actions of their parents. And what greater punishment than getting sheared away from the country you love and the only one you've ever known? Though if you did want to talk about things in terms of reward anyways, I'd say that the privilege of staying in the country they grew up in wouldn't be a reward for anything their parents did, but instead a reward for following the laws, getting registered, and gaining educations and skills that the rest of us find useful... basically a reward for acting like model citizens even above and beyond what we expect of actual citizens.

You've stated that you feel the Dreamers should be deported, but again, what exactly does the law say about Securing our Borders, Splitting Up Families, Requiring an e-Verify system, Asylum Seekers, Refugees, Ensuring Process Efficiency? There seem to be some pretty clear gaps/confusion and or disagreement in each of those areas on that, and I believe that we really ought to try and resolve those discrepancies.

Did you not see the vote that I submitted in the second post? I believe that security on the borders needs to be beefed up,
that law enforcement needs to crack down on employers who employ undocumented immigrants,
and that undocumented adults need to be deported along with any children they bring,
and I also feel that undocumented children who are unaccompanied should be deported as well.
My thinking is that if they're old enough to manage a trip here on their own, then they should make it alright back in the place they came from.
But of course Dreamers are again a different class of people. They've already lived in the country for years and have demonstrated their ability
to abide by the laws. They also have no idea how to live in the place you want to send them. Again, many don't even speak the language.

Imo, the way to stop further illegal immigration is again, to beef up the border security,
and take away some of the main incentive that draws them here,
i.e. the people who keep illegally employing them.

And as an aside, I also believe that a third way to make people less inclined to sneak across the border
would be to improve/expand the legal visa programs. You mentioned before that you think people ought to be kicked out
and forced to the end of the waiting line, but the truth is, there really isn't much of a line that gives folks any reasonable idea
of when they might make it in. We have a lottery system, a couple of them actually, which imo are pretty silly and should be removed
and replaced with more merit-based systems. Take randomness out of the equation. If a visa is for work, set a specific number that get in
per year, and make who gets in be decided on a simple first come first serve basis. And add more education, skill, or specific service based visas.

Instead of having people sitting around waiting to get some lucky dice role, have them attempt to better themselves. Even if such people don't
ultimately make the cut, the education or skills they received in the attempt may help to improve the country they're in, thus making immigration
to our country less necessary/desirable to others. This is how I think about the issue anyways...

-Meta

 

You didn't even read my post.... did you...