How we should treat China

Oh, I see,

Then you favor redistributionism.

Got it...

 

the fact i know you never been to china is because you mention ccp pay chinese student tuition and slave labor etc. if you been to china, see things, then you know china getting much richer compare to say 80s 90s.
these days, almost all students coming from china are payed by their parents. if you went to vancouver or calfornia etc, you see plenty rich chinese kids driving bmw etc. Chinese is driving up housing price in CA and in canda, as well in aussies.
manufacture labor in china is paying about 4000-5000yuan on average, which is about $600-800usd/month, in china thats equivalent to ppl earning $2000/month here. The fact many chinese support the ccp, is ccp did bring hundreds millions chinese out of poverty, economy is one thing CCP knows they needed to stay in power.

 

Yes, China is getting "much richer"--by using slave labor.

Oh, here is a link to an article from Newsweek (dated December 6, 2018--about a year and a half ago): https://www.newsweek.com/chinese-women-workers-make-4-cents-producing-45-disney-dolls-1246857

For the record, it is titled: "Chinese Women Workers Make 4 Cents for Producing $45 Disney Dolls."

 

Yes. I view you as an isolationist. Anyone that wants to withdraw from China with the resulting effect of pricing us out of the rest of the world market..... Yes. an isolationist.
As @s002wjh said it's more complicated than that.

I would have thought, by now, someone would have told you life is not fair.

I think it is you that thinks trade and production to be a zero sum game. Look it up.

 

go search china manufacture monthly salary, if you dont know dont bother to claim you know. ill bet you didnt even know a single chinese or even talk to them here.
somehow you think millions chinese travel oversea EACH year, sending their kids to western school are on slave labor wage lol

https://internshipschina.com/average-salary-in-china/
https://www.ceicdata.com/en/indicator/china/monthly-earnings
https://www.statista.com/statistics/743509/china-average-yearly-wages-in-manufacturing/

 

What is any form of taxation if it isn't redistribution?
Private healthcare where somebody is charged money to hold their newborn baby isn't redistribution it is exploitation.

 

Gosh. If you are American (or British even) the country was built on slave labour.
Do you see the irony in your post?
As for who makes the profit from Dolls, ask that American institution Disney. Chinese workers can leave their jobs and are not bought or sold in chains.
Wage is relative anyway, it relates to the cost of living, Chinese workers don't have to pay American levels of healthcare costs one effect of which leaves millions of their fellow citizens without care and in pain.
Go to China if you can, check the place out and experience Chinese day to day reality up close and personal.

 

Let us be clear here: I view economic supremacy as being far subordinate--far subordinate!--to ethical considerations.

And I would not wish to have any dealings with a country that regularly acts in an amoral fashion.

If that is your definition of "isolationist," then so be it...

Perhaps "life" is not fair.

But those whom we deal with should be.

Can you imagine, say, playing a baseball game in which one team played by one set of rules, and the other team played by an entirely different set of rules?

How do you suppose that would come out?

Well then, why, exactly, must China try to undersell (and generally undermine) other countries, in order to "improve there [sic] standing in the world order"?

 

I am not familiar with your sources. (On the other hand, Newsweek--which I quoted--should be familiar to just about everyone.)

The last one said that by 2018, the "average wages in China increased to 82,461 yuan from 29,229 yuan in 2008." And that is, indeed, an impressive increase.

However, I have looked up the matter at hand; and one Chinese juan equals only about 0.14 US Dollars.

So an increase from 29,229 Chinese juan to 82,461 juan means just an increase from 4,092.06 dollars annually to 11,544.54 dollars.

Do you really think that this number is impressive?

Note: An American working a standard 40-hour workweek--with no overtime--and for the federal minimum wage of $7.25 per hour, will gross $290.00 per week--or $15,080.00 per year. That is not much; but it is certainly better than a mere $11,544.54 per year.

 

This is a mere appeal to emotion--which (in case you are not aware) is a logical fallacy.

 

Yes, I am an American.

And yes, the country was founded upon slave labor.

But two wrongs do not equal one right.

And, perhaps more to the point: We abolished slavery, way back in the 1860s. Evidently, China has not done the same.

Are you suggesting that simply because China has UHC, its citizens are compensated relatively well?

Do you really believe that?

Or are just just dredging up any old argument, on the spur of the moment, that might (possibly) be useful?

 

Well, the good new if this is America. You are free to never buy a Chinese product, but don't try to force that view on me.
Oh. And for fun please let us all know how your never buy Chinese quest turns out.

Is this a test?
I would say it's because they aren't as greedy and are willing to live with a lower standard of living. Is their something wrong with this?

Please note we are now even on the average.

 

Well, if we had no dealings with China, then I suppose that this view would be "force[d]" upon you.

But I am wondering if your sense of moral outrage is selective.

For instance, South Africa's system of apartheid (in place until 1994) turned blacks (and Indians) into second-class citizens.

Do you believe, therefore, that sanctions and/or disinvestment were uncalled for?

Or are these fine if the country is a right-wing autocracy--but wrong if it is a left-wing dictatorship?

Oh, so you are suggesting that the typical, American middle-class standard of living is "greedy"?

And that virtuous people should be quite pleased to live with "a lower standard of living" than this?

Really?

 

Selective? Yes. I guess so.
I don't think we have any business attacking anyone unless they threaten us directly. Think Germany in WWI or Japan in WWII.
We should not sanction countries just because we don't like their ideas or deny them their freedoms. Think Europe because they would trade with Iran, or your example of S. Africa.

I believe in Capitalism. However, I lean towards allowing government intervention to improve things. Think things like R&D tax credits. Is capitalism greedy? Yep.
I am not the one advocating a lower standard of living - you are. Though you may not understand it.

 

I am not quite sure that I properly understand your last sentence here.

Are you saying (in the last part of that sentence) that the US should not have sanctioned South Africa?

If so, are you not taking a political position that is entirely amoral?

Coulda fooled me....

Is that just another way of saying that you prefer Big Government over smaller government?

And yet you claim to "believe in" it...

Well, your recent post--which stated, "I would say it's because [the Chinese people] aren't as greedy [as Americans are] and are willing to live with a lower standard of living"--appears to indicate that you believe that Americans, in general, are just in favor of too high of a standard of living.

 

THE MANCHURIAN MEDIA: Chinese Propaganda Outlet Has Paid US Newspapers $19 Million For Advertising, Printing.

 

And good for them - but are they coming to the US - that is the more relevant question. If not - then it does us little good. It matters not if we are competing with China - or with Samsung - its a global market and everyone is fighting for their piece.

China is a huge long term market for us - tech stuff will come and go - food - Energy and every other staple we produce will remain. The idea of barring ourselves out of 20+% of the global market is not strategic thinking.

The geopolitical economic chess game has gotten much more complicated. Way more players - much more competition.

 

Treat them as we tteated cpmmunists in the cold war. Stop enriching an enemy to democracy.

 

The US with it's racial problems forcing the end to South Africa's segregation?
You gotta be kidding.
While I'm sympathetic with their plight. No. I don't think we are are arbiters in such matters.

Your turn to answer my question. Do you think it is right for the US to threaten the EU with sanctions because they wanted to save the nuke deal and trade with Iran?

You are the one that wants to control trade. Not me. I'm a capitalist, you sound more like a communist.

Sure. Your way won't work. The Trump approach to Huawei is a good example. I would incentivize US 5G manufactures to catch up with them rather than trying to block them. In the end the rest of the world will now buy from them and not the US because we will be to late. Isolation doesn't work.

Is there something wrong with that?

You need to use your competitive advantage. The Chinese have used low labor cost and a massive labor pool.
In the past we have used technology. I would hate to see us give up on that.

 

If it is evidently then help us out with your assertion that there is slave labour in China with some evidence.
As for universal health care, it is part of the compensation not the whole of it, and comparing it to the less than universal care in America is a reasonable part of the debate.

 

We should treat China with great care. If they cease to use the dollar as their reserve currency we will have lost that monetary sovereignty over the world that we now an enjoy and the major part of our national debt will be de facto due and payable whereupon the USA will be bankrupt in the world economy.

 

Do you understand what the tuquoque fallacy is?

Why not?

Let me just say that I stand foursquare against the Iran Nuke deal (a.k.a. the JCPOA). (Iran's breakout time is now reported to be just a matter of weeks; after which, Iran would surely design, manufacture, or assemble the bomb’s components--which would not take long, according to what I have read).

Actually, you sound more like a libertarian.

And, evidently, you view anyone who does not share libertarian views as a mere "communist."

Perhaps you do not understand.

No one is trying to "block" Huawei from doing business in the rest of the world.

There is simply no obligation--moral or otherwise--for the US to give tacit approval to them.

How can you claim to "believe" in capitalism, yet simultaneously consider it to be "greedy"?

Do you see no conflict there?

Just how do we have a "competitive advantage," when the Chinese pay their workers only a fraction of what our federal minimum wage is?

 

I already gave some evidence. (For more on this, see post #203 and post #209 in this thread.)

This tap dances around the point.

Would you say that UHC, plus the pittance that Chinese workers are paid, together, equal the compensation that American workers receive--even those who work for minimum wage?

Somehow, I doubt that you will even attempt to answer this question...

 

Never heard of it, but I Googled it. I gave you a very direct answer, did you not read it.

You should read some more about their breakout time.
But you didn't answer the question. Why did we threaten the EU with sanctions when they didn't agree with us?

I may have a libertarian view on this subject, but that doesn't preclude me from being a capitalist.
If not a Communist what would you call yourself?
Maybe a command economy where the government tells you what to make?

Oh really?

Angry over U.K. refusal to ban Huawei from its 5G networks, Trump berates PM Johnson in heated phone chat

https://fortune.com/2020/02/07/trump-johnson-huawei-ban/

Nope.

Cheap labor is what China is using. We have been giving away ours by cutting back on education and incentives for research and failing to lead on the World stage.

 

You are pretty close to being in line with advice that AboveAlpha gave us several years ago:


http://www.politicalforum.com/index...-analysis-of-usa-relations-with-china.398388/
AboveAlpha: