Part 39 of Post Your Tough Questions Regarding Christianity

You are the one misinterpreteing scripture .. every time something that conflicts with your man made dogma comes up - you desperately run to your snake charmer website to be comforted by words of deception.

but ... how about we check out what "Torah.com" has to say - rather than these moronic snake charmer who don't know Hebrew.

https://www.thetorah.com/article/giving-your-firstborn-son-to-god

As any good adademic ..(as opposed to your snake charmer site) - it gives alternative perspectives .. and explains why they don't hold much water.

Only a fool does not realize that there are going to be a gazillion sites .. similar to your fundamentalist snake charmer site - desperatly trying to apologize and explain away this passage.

Your comments on Solomon are laughable .. complaining that it was a shrine rather than a Temple .. Who cares .. this is about Child Sacrifice and has no bearing on my comments in the post which make no mention of Solomon building temples for these other Gods . .. although .. since he was worshiping these Gods it only makes sense he would have built tempes .. but it matters not.

What we Read in Scripture --- is that King Solomon worshiped other Gods .. and built "High Places" /shrines for human sacrifice.

Sorry mate .. Child sacrifice was part of the Israelite religious practice. The debate is not over whether or not they did it .. but how often it was practiced .. most taking the position that it was relatively rare .. as you don't want to kill off all your male children.

That the Israelites believed in the power of Child sacrifice is without question .. running away in fear after the Moabite King sacrifices his son ..

When one of the Kings of Israel "Jephthah ... offers a human sacrifice to YHWH if he helps him to win a big battle against the ammonites. Jephthah wins .. and sacrifice his daughter is what he does .. YHWH does not step in to stop sacrifice like he does in one of the versions of the Issac story - . does not "reddem" the girl for a sheep" .. nope - YHWH accepts the human sacrifice .. and the girl is killed.

 

Nobody is sacrificing chldren by the millions .. and repeating your nonsensical unsupported premise that you cant defend over and over .. does not make your claim any less false.

Comprende voux ?

 

Modernites sacrifice this in the womb to the God of leisure for no other reason than to rid themselves of the burden. And you fuss over Gods purposes in ancient Israel.

 

Im not talking about a 22 week old fetus .. I am talking about a zygote .. single human cell. Your claim that millions of late term fetuses are aborted is completely false .. it is very rare .. like child sacrifice.

I have previously given you both secular and religions refutations to your defacto claim - and you were the one that brought God in to the equation .. something about all Gods precious children .. so if not the God of Israel .. what God are you referring to ?

but this is all another of your diversions . the question at hand having nothing to do with the ancient Israelite Gods .. now back to the question you are desperately avoiding repeatedly .. When does the soul arrive ? followed by rational for why you think this might be the case. .. or do you just defacto know . cause God told you it was here ... speaking of which .. there is a good question for you to get answered .. since you have a direct line ..

 

Oh so the giff has his own snake charming site...lol

giff let me remind you that my thread deals with Christianity and not Judaism. So we have you here deferring over to a Hebrew site...lol

I know that giff, I have never denied that, he indeed worshipped "false pagan gods" would be a more accurate way to put it that angered the one and only true God. And yes, here giff is where they were doing these child sacrifices, killing children for these pagan false gods. But the one and only true God never commanded the Israelites to do child sacrifices/killings. Let me bring up that passage I presented in my last post to you.

We Read in Scripture:

11 “This is what you must do when the Lord fulfills the promise he swore to you and to your ancestors. When he gives you the land where the Canaanites now live, 12 you must present all firstborn sons and firstborn male animals to the Lord, for they belong to him. 13 A firstborn donkey may be bought back from the Lord by presenting a lamb or young goat in its place. But if you do not buy it back, you must break its neck. However, you must buy back every firstborn son.

14 “And in the future, your children will ask you, ‘What does all this mean?’ Then you will tell them, ‘With the power of his mighty hand, the Lord brought us out of Egypt, the place of our slavery. 15 Pharaoh stubbornly refused to let us go, so the Lord killed all the firstborn males throughout the land of Egypt, both people and animals. That is why I now sacrifice all the firstborn males to the Lord—except that the firstborn sons are always bought back.’ 16 This ceremony will be like a mark branded on your hand or your forehead. It is a reminder that the power of the Lord’s mighty hand brought us out of Egypt.” Exodus 13:11-16 NLT

After reading the above passage, anybody who is not interpretation impaired would not misinterpret this passage to mean child sacrificing is going on, quite the contrary. It is a consecration a dedication of the first born sons that is going on.

Let me respond how you usually respond.

I am just telling you what the Scriptures of the Holy Bible says - why you trying to shoot the messenger.

giff why don't you admit you were wrong by saying King Solomon built other Temples for pagan gods besides the one he built for the one and only true God? That is what the issue was about and I proved to you by presenting Scripture that you were wrong. giff when you make any kind of comments you got to be accurate, precise and have backing from Scripture.

I know all about these child sacrifices done under these pagan false gods that some of the Israelites were practicing, a sinful practice that essentially was a rebellion against the one and only true God who forbade them into doing such evil.

Ok now let me get to your Hebrew snake charmer site. Below they are saying there are two interpretations to the Exodus 22 passage. Did you even bother to read it? I don't think so. So why don't you read it giff.

And below is what appears to be their conclusion since it was at the end of their article.

So after reading the above, they are not saying conclusively that Exodus 22 is definitely about child sacrifice.

But because I believe the Holy Bible is the Word of God, I believe what's written below which clearly tells us that the one and only true God, the Christian God did not command the Israelites to perform child sacrifices on their first born. Again I repeat, it is a consecration a dedication of the first born that is going on.

And besides the one and only true God only gave mankind the Ten Commandments and Forbidden Sexual Practices. There is no 11th commandment that commands us to "sacrifice your first born children."

We Read in Scripture:

11 “This is what you must do when the Lord fulfills the promise he swore to you and to your ancestors. When he gives you the land where the Canaanites now live, 12 you must present all firstborn sons and firstborn male animals to the Lord, for they belong to him. 13 A firstborn donkey may be bought back from the Lord by presenting a lamb or young goat in its place. But if you do not buy it back, you must break its neck. However, you must buy back every firstborn son.

14 “And in the future, your children will ask you, ‘What does all this mean?’ Then you will tell them, ‘With the power of his mighty hand, the Lord brought us out of Egypt, the place of our slavery. 15 Pharaoh stubbornly refused to let us go, so the Lord killed all the firstborn males throughout the land of Egypt, both people and animals. That is why I now sacrifice all the firstborn males to the Lord—except that the firstborn sons are always bought back.’ 16 This ceremony will be like a mark branded on your hand or your forehead. It is a reminder that the power of the Lord’s mighty hand brought us out of Egypt.” Exodus 13:11-16 NLT

 

So .. anything Old Testiment is off limits .. not at all relevant to Christianity .. No Tough Questions about the Most High allowed.. and then falling to the floor giggling .. happy to avoided "Tough Questions" in relation to YHWH's occasional indulgence in Child sacrifice..

aye quite a bunch those Israelites .. fighting each other much of the time .. who's God was supporting which side during those battles ? .. ohhh . sorry .. no OT allowed in the Mitt "Tough Question" Thread .. ..

and hey .. perhaps you have a point .. in the words of the Early Church .. which was against anything Jew -

http://www.torahresource.com/EnglishArticles/Fiscus Judaicus.pdf

and you can read all about the "Fiscus Judaicus" .. So is this your line now mate .. "Be not decieved with strange doctrines nor with old fables which are unprofitable" ..

Each to their own I guess .. but then if the YHWH and all that OT stuff is just myths .. who is the God of Christianity ?

There Mittster .. a tough question for you .. given you have now dispenses with the OT

 

Some people (I guess) imagine that if they can discredit God, it brings them closer to some mystical sanctuary of absolution from accountability to him.

 

Child sacrifice was commanded by YHWH in numerous passages - you complain about the source "Torah.com" comparing it to your "Got questions" snake charmer site which has been proven false over and over .. never giving the other side.

Then . after complaining about the source . you use the source saying LOOK LOOK .. there are some who disagree .. when I told you there were other possibilities .. as if the information supports your claim .. with no attention to why or how or where .. just desperately grasping to a source within a source you have already discounted ...

In a good source ... unlike the one's you use .. the arguments from both sides are presented .. and those on your side had weak arguments .. desperately trying to whisk away reality of what is written.

Then you whine and complain about "Solomon building places of worship" the term temple instead of "High Place" .. which could have well been accompanied by a temple in any case ..

Sorry mate .. YHWH or no YHWH .. the good King Solomon was worshiping many other Gods .."following their ways" which includes child sacrifice at times .. the only question being how much .. and that is where where the scholarship resides with YHWH . ... not if he demanded child sacrifice .. but how often..

YHWH certainly didn't reject Jephthah's human sacrifice now did he ... but hey .. what do we care .. Those OT stories just myths and fairy tales according to you.

 

Don't be too hard on Mitt for discounting and discrediting the God of the OT as not relevant to Christianity - similar to the early Church calling the OT "Old Fables" .. but, hold on .. have not you done that as well saying

- referring to OT scripture .. both discounting and discrediting it .. as not relevant to your faith or your God.

And what is this about "Absolution from accountability" ? You are a "Free Pass"/Sola Fide advocate just like Mitt - "Just have faith" and you automatically get in .. no need to go through Judgement . "Absolution from Accountability to him"

Looks like you have a few Logs need removing before picking the speck out of eye of Brother Mitt.

 

Easy there G. In my limited experience, salvation is not a free pass. It is a gift from Heavenly Father by way of his Son Jesus Christ, who suffered all that he might know our travails and thereby take our hands along the way. He apportions to us, but not more than we can bear. It is more to our rescue and enlargement by degree, than to our seizing in one fell swoop. The minutiae of growth is to the individual, as we are all a bit different in capacity, intellect and circumstance. Singing kumbaya does not absolve one of lifes daily grind and the engaging of doctrine to our spirits. There is a certain sobriety and chasteness in the matter, along with the taming of our baser natures. It is not easy to placate the lion and assure the lamb in truth and freedom. But with faith, prayer, and sacrifice, to keep our compasses calibrated and our aim true, it is with hope to arrive at our Heavenly Fathers feet, destiny, and the promised land.

 

How much did you pay for this gift ? Nothing .. hence the term "Free" .. Christ paid for it .. not you.

So .. you have this gift .. that you got for free - that gets you through the pearly gates ...no "Judgement Criteria" .. right through the line .. your in.

How is this not exactly what I described - in use of the term "Free Pass" .. you want to call it "Free Gift" and sing kumbaya .. sall the same mate..

These are not tough concepts ...well known debate this one .. not some secret that this debate is a problem .. dividing Christianity into groups .. "Sola Fide" adherents being in the minority .. Orthodox and Catholic both have a works requirement....

Not a third side .. either you are "Free Pass" ... or no Free Pass ..

 

Well dude, the best way to finish anything is to begin. Jesus said, "Enter ye in at the straight gate....". Then you can tell me what's what, rather than proclaim that your procrastination/confusion is somehow my sin. That said, I suppose Jesus Christ is like life itself. It too is a free gift, but we are beholden to live it properly. Jesus said ye must be born again of water and spirit, and then follow him. He also said that men are that they might have joy. And I came that they might have it more fully. So you can place me in the faith and works category. But in the end, after all that one can do, it is by Gods grace, will, and final judgment, that one gains a fullness in his inheritance. No man can lay claim to that of himself more than to hope, work, sacrifice, and believe, along the course of ones whole life for it. Still it is to God to say. Some may say it is an impossible tedium to achieve. But it is no different in effort or type than living by your conscience, obeying the law, doing good, and living by your principles all your life. Salvation is like "upping your game" finding your second wind and lengthening your stride.

 

What is this now .. what procrastination .. what am I procrastinating . and what is the confustion. You are the confused one .. can't seem to figure out what your beliefs are.. can't manage simple questions such as " free pass - no free pass"

You have no clue what "born again" means .. but matters not .. you managed to answer the question .. "The Gods be praised" - we have progress.

So you believe that works is a requirement .. along with "Faith" - works are mostly self explanatory .. but the "Faith" thing is a bit hazy -- Faith - Faith in what has always been my question - and you can get many different answers.

 

I can't help but notice how you deceitfully ignore that he also allegedly said to give everything to the poor and then also said to sell everything and give the money to the poor and to hate your parents and be like the wind and drink his blood and eat his flesh.

It is not even remotely surprising that you can't seem to understand that every single time Jesus was asked how one enters heaven, he gave a complete different answer that was vague and evasive.

But, you know, that's common for charlatans who really don't have the answers to anything.

I mention that, because it's obvious you've never studied cults as part of a university level course, and all cult leaders do the same thing, which is spin a web of deceit since they're constantly changing the rules because they're making it up as they go along.

 

Why you talkn all this smack about my bro HeyZeus --- never said you had to sell everything .. and what are these different answers to the salvation question ?

 

Yes, it is. I'm saved. On the Day of Atonement, I sit around idly sipping wine and eating cheese, because that's what Yahweh said to do to be saved.

Had you ever bothered to read the texts, and I do mean Codices Aleppo and Leningradis, and not the differently twisted King Joke Vision, it quite clearly says in no uncertain terms that anyone -- Jew or Gentile -- need only rest on the Day of Atonement to be saved.

I sure hope you're not calling Yahweh a liar, because that would mean you don't have faith in Yahweh and since Jesus is his both Yahweh and himself, that would mean you're calling Jesus a liar and you don't have faith in Jesus, so you cannot be saved.

 

Because he isn't wrong.

We Read in Scripture:

1 Kings 11:7 On a hill east of Jerusalem, Solomon built a high place for Chemosh the detestable god of Moab, and for Molek the detestable god of the Ammonites.

2 Kings 18:4 He [Hezekiah] eliminated the high places, smashed the sacred pillars to bits, and cut down the Asherah pole. He also demolished the bronze serpent that Moses had made, for up to that time the Israelites had been offering incense to it; it was called Nehushtan.

Oooops.....

No, the 10 Commandments come from the Egyptian Book of the Dead which was written around 1650 BCE or so.

X-Moses most likely actually lived in Egypt-proper and was a priest whose real name might have been Anmoses or Amenmoses before Hezikiah and Jeremiah had a hissy-fit and truncated Anmoses/Amenmoses to just "moses" an Egyptian word meaning "emanated from."

Note that Classical Biblical Hebrew does not exist as a language prior to circa 1,000 BCE, so it is impossible for "moses" --which is rendered as m-s-s in CBH because it's taken from the Egyptian m-s-s -- to mean what you claim it means.

Jeremiah and Hilkiah certainly knew who An and Amen were and because the real name of X-Moses was likely Anmoses or Amenmoses, they would have put on sack cloth, smeared themselves with ashes, pulled out their hair, and crapped their pants because it didn't say Yahwehmoses.

Jeremiah and Hilkiah were Aaronid priests, meaning they were direct descendants of Aaron, and they hated X-Moses, and the Mosaic priests. meaning those priests descended of X-Moses with a hatred that would accelerate global warming 1,000-fold.

Not only did Jeremiah and Hilkiah edit the name of X-Moses, they also edited Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus and Numbers in a very clever and deceitful way to lead unsuspecting readers to believe that the Aaronid priesthood had supremacy over the Mosaic priesthood, and that Judah had supremacy over Ephraim, and then those two wrote Deuteronomy to further justify their political machinations.

 

This is too long to be a joke. Yet neither you nor I take it seriously.

 

If you graduated University, your Professors have failed you. And that is the cult to which you belong.

 

No giff don't jump to false conclusions, I'm not saying what you're mistakenly thinking I'm saying.

Lol...I laugh out loud because you are so consistent in interpreting what you read incorrectly, never mind Scripture but just anything you read...lola...sorry I had to laugh out loud again.

If you going to defer over to a site why do you go to a Jewish/Hebrew site who of course are not going to have the same perspective as Christian sites. Since my thread is about Christianity get interpretations from Christian sites to see any similarities/variances, don't go to a non-Christian religious site...c'mon giff wake up and smell the coffee!

But anyhoot the funny/ironic thing though is that the snake charmer site you picked never endorsed your interpretation. All they concluded is that there are two interpretations of understanding which essentially nullifies each other out.

But I bet if you went to 10 different Christian sites they would have given the same interpretation in regards to the meaning of what is written in Exodus 22:29-30.

And what is the meaning?

After God rescued Israel from slavery in Egypt, He commanded the people to consecrate every firstborn male human and firstborn animal to Him (Exodus 22:29–30). The dedication was in memory of God’s great deliverance and a sign to their children that God had brought them out of Egypt.

So once again let me bring up the passage you should be familiar with because I brought it to your attention in my previous post and this time I'm going to make it easy for you to interpret this passage correctly by highlighting key phrases. I know you need all the help you can get so that you interpret Scripture correctly.

We Read in Scripture:

11 “This is what you must do when the Lord fulfills the promise he swore to you and to your ancestors. When he gives you the land where the Canaanites now live, 12 you must present all firstborn sons and firstborn male animals to the Lord, for they belong to him. 13 A firstborn donkey may be bought back from the Lord by presenting a lamb or young goat in its place. But if you do not buy it back, you must break its neck. However, you must buy back every firstborn son.

14 “And in the future, your children will ask you, ‘What does all this mean?’ Then you will tell them, ‘With the power of his mighty hand, the Lord brought us out of Egypt, the place of our slavery. 15 Pharaoh stubbornly refused to let us go, so the Lord killed all the firstborn males throughout the land of Egypt, both people and animals. That is why I now sacrifice all the firstborn males to the Lord—except that the firstborn sons are always bought back.’ 16 This ceremony will be like a mark branded on your hand or your forehead. It is a reminder that the power of the Lord’s mighty hand brought us out of Egypt.” Exodus 13:11-16 NLT

The only occasional indulgence here is you...wait I should say the only persistent indulgence here is you who misinterpret Scripture so routinely...lol What else could we expect from a non-Christian, an unbeliever.

 

We all know what you said Mitt -- you complained about discussion of the OT - in an OP on Christianity .. now crying "Thats not what I meant" .. so what is it Mitt .. Is YHWH's acceptance of Child Sacrifice relevent to Christianity or not .. in this dance of deception.

Why would I go to a Jewish site "Torah.com" for an interpretation of OT Jewish Scripture .. rather than a "Christian site" someone who likely can not even read Hebrew . never mind interpret a Hebrew text ? .. Ridiculous and absurd .. you can't be this naive .. but further .. why do you think Christian Scholars would not concur with Jewish Scholars .. do you think all Christian Scholars are Academic Idiots like the fundamentalist evangelical/pentecostal ?

I present Biblical Scholarship.. from the best place I can find .. you run to that fundamentalist wing nut site "Gotquestions" .one with zero academic credibility .. covering only one side of the story ..

Anyway . what is it you dispute about the story of Jephthah in the Bible .. who sacrifices his Daughter to YHWH ..

What is your dispute with the interpretation that he actually sacrificed his daughter ? and if you do not dispute .. why did YHWH accept this sacrifice.

 

Moses = the master extortionist of all time.

 

Oh what a tangled web you weave ..so desperate are you to decieve. The site given you Torah.com is not a fundamentalist crackpot site like "Got Questions"

As academic rigor requires -- while the scholars favor the "YHWH demanded Child Sacrifice" interpretation - they also give other possible interpretations.

Other examples are then given .. one from Leviticus.

You then post the above .. which allows for other interpretations .. saying that perhaps Ezekiel was an attempt to modify the nasty Child sacrifice law "Bad Law" .. but it is still YHWH's law

All you manage to stammer is.

Yes ... Mitt .. they are saying it is about Child sacrifice .. the question is to how that law was applied .. did they carry out such things for every first born (which is unlikely) or just occasionally .. allowing to pay money in exchange or substitute a goat .. all which makes perfect sense.

Then all of a sudden .. you forget your own words - granting that while this seem the most likely interpretation although not conclusive and the falsehoods and forked tongue starts flying in later post.

1) you agreed that Exodus could mean what it says .. Child Sacrifice and that Scholars favor this interpretation .. then you turn around cry "You are so consistent in interpreting what you read incorrectly" pure falsehood and deceit .. from forked tongue.

2) Indeed the site does concur with my interpretation ... other interpretations being less likely - Child sacrifice to YHWH being the most obvious, likely and logical choice ... one supported in other scripture.


Your mind is all twisted Mitt .. and you have completely failed to answer tough questions .. running around name calling whole avoiding questions rather than addressing them.

What about Japhtheh .. Kind of Israel - do you deny that he sacrificed his child to YHWH .. is this question too tough for you ? Why did YHWH not redeem his daugher .. why did YHWH happily accept the sacrifice of Japhtheh's daugher ..

Cease from the dark path . deception, avoidance, falsehood, demonization of the messenger - and answer this Tough Question which has been put to you at least 3 times now.

 

I can't tell if you are asking Mitt a question or trying to make a point. What exactly is your question or point? Are you attempting to reconcile the seemingly different natures of the God of the old testament with the God of the new testament? And to what end...spiritual, academic? Do you believe in the personage of God the Father and the virgin birth of his only begotten Son Jesus Christ and his holy mission? It seems to me that your biblical references are to the upheaval of biblical continuity that you may rest in the soft mess of your creation, rather than to seek sincere understanding. You do realize that those peoples are long gone, yet God remains divine in heaven. A wise man once counseled that while we may not know everything, we know enough to keep the commandments. Of course, he was speaking to those who know and love God, who rest their heads upon his side, in whose hearts he resides, and theirs in his. Have you created God, lengthened his life and seasons, blessed him all the live long day and not spoiled his passings as he has to you in mercy. Has he rended you asunder and robbed you with malice? Or has he covered you in charity, and closed his eyes. Are my words to you a consideration in spirit, or merely another vain planting to be uprooted and softened to your glorious appeal. Your response will be a revelation.

 

There are many points of the discussion . - reconciling God of new vs the "GODS" of the Old is one God of New/Jesus vs YHWH is another . probably what you are referring to would be one .. depends on who am talking to.. To the literalist/fundamentalist - could be to ascertain whether you should follow - as the fundamentalist/literalist is so oft wont to do - the dictates of YHWH ... or of Jesus.

Now to your interesting questions... "To What End" - to know the nature of God or at least fine tune the story a bit... not sure if I used the "God in a Box" analogy to you before.

"Personage of God the Father" --- Sure don't you mean "Personages" though ? Trinity has more than one .. 3 distinct personages .. one God .. the answer to the second question .. No .. So in English this means that I believe in One God .. but not the Trinity concept .. "UNLESS" these personages each have their own distinct will and are not Coequal - this is not Trinity Doctrine.

The virgin birth is not recored in Mark.. the first Gospel .. 20 years later came a fellow took all of Mark - sans a few passages derogatory to Jesus and/or disciples - and added a few things .. the Virgin Birth being one .. Physical Resurrection stories being another .. so .. in the first story .. Jesus does not show up after dying ... no smoking gun ..

So no don't believe the Virgin Birth Story - -- Jesus - as with Sargon - Moses and others - was adopted by a God .. as a man of 20 in the case of Jesus .. as told to us in Mark .. after which he undergoes a Trial .. traditional for such things . the "Son of Man" is tested by one of the Son's of God .. the "Tester" or "Advocate" in this case .. our good friend Sataniel .. sent by the most High .. to do his duty .. just like in Job.

"Only Begotten" -- Where did Jesus say he was the only Son of the Father ? - don't recall that .. Only begotten son of Man perhaps...

In Scripture we read that the Most High has many Sons ... Sons of the Supreme one as in Psalm 82 .. Son's of Same in Job .. Sons of Same in Genesis .. shagging all the fair maidens - as we are told in scripture.

Then comes the raging nonsense - desperate attempt to demonize the messenger

What a bunch of raging gibberish .. you are the one who does not seek ... why are you projecting your self proclaimed "I don't care what scripture says" or lack of understanding . or the lack of desire to understand scripture onto me.

You are completely lost w/r to scripture . OK .. no worries .. but why you trying to pin your failings onto me .. you asked me up front .. "What is your point" .. I told you .. directly . Now I ask you .. what is the point of this self deception .. surely you can't believe what nonsense is comming out of your mouth .. or .. perhaps you do .. Would you like my psychological diagnosis of your condition .. since you are so keen to label others .. the difference being that my assessment is going to have a ring of truth to it ... "Thought Avoidance Mechanisms at work" perhaps.