This question is directed mainly to the Christians on here, but if any athiests who wish to take this seriously are free to answer the following question: Surah 5:7 They have certainly disbelieved who say that Allah is Christ, the son of Mary. Say, "Then who could prevent Allah at all if He had intended to destroy Christ, the son of Mary, or his mother or everyone on the earth?" And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them. He creates what He wills, and Allah is over all things competent.
It seems to be taking issue with the idea that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and part of the Trinity. From memory Islam acknowledges Yeshuah as a prophet but not as a manifestation of God.
To paraphrase... Who could of prevented God from killing Jesus and/or Mary PBUT, or the whole world, if Jesus was god? Still a question. What is a question without an answer? You are correct.
What is the quastion? I am assuming you are asking how we understand this verse. It is kind of double talk the first words: They have certainly disbelieved who say that Allah is Christ, the son of Mary. = "They" meaning the people who refuse to believe that Jesus is and Allah are One. So if Allah and Christ are One or Allah is Christ then why would Allah want to destroy or kill himself as Christ? In other words if Jesus is God why would he want to die on the cross or allowed himself to be crucified? It is an answer in question form, no way would Allah kill himself if he is Jesus Christ in other words he is Christ that is why the Quranic-Jesus was not crucified because no way would Allah allowed himself to be crucified. At the same time it is saying that the Biblical-Jesus that was crucified that Christian worship is not the same Quranic-Jesus Christ because no way would Allah allow himself to be crucified or be kill. That is why a look alike died on the cross according to Muslims. This would clearly contradicts Muslims claim that Jesus is not God or Son of God.
lol... I don't know exactly what you are going on about, but "they" is Christians and the question is asking, if Jesus PBUH was god, then what would prevent God from killing Jesus? Of course, this is a hypothetical scenario. You could maybe try answering the question in your next post.
if god is a cartoon genie that can do what ever it pleases i guess noting can stop it unless it gets in a split personality fight with itself that might prevent it from doing some of what it wants or if there are other gods perhaps they can interfere with one another
If Jesus Christ is God then why would God wants to kill Jesus Christ? He wouldn't because He send Jesus Christ to deliver His personal message that we are all His children that Jesus Christ is His begotten Son that He will let us crucify him to proof that God truly loves us that He is willing to sacrifice His only begotten son just like Abraham was willing to sacrifice his son Isaac. That verse is hardly a hypothetical scenario it is very clear that God is saying that He and Jesus are One and that He has power over Jesus Christ because He is Jesus Christ. Surah 5:7 They have certainly disbelieved who say that Allah is Christ, the son of Mary. Say, "Then who could prevent Allah at all if He had intended to destroy Christ, the son of Mary, or his mother or everyone on the earth?" And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them. He creates what He wills, and Allah is over all things competent. It would be nice to read what you think of that verse?
Taken literally it makes no sense. Even trying to work it out in a more abstract form, it still makes no sense, but that is because I am not well read in Christian theology. With that caveat these are my thoughts: 1. It was all an invention of the early Christian Church. I don't know which gospel carried the information concerning the crucifixion so that would be a good start in my education. Until that's explained to me I am of the mind that Yeshua of Nazareth was executed by the Romans and the ruling class in Jewish society at the time. The greatest preacher had been silenced. 2. God's love. To spread the teaching of Jesus Christ (previously known as Yeshua of Nazareth) it was necessary for the early Christians to demonstrate that their interpretation of the Jewish God (they were still a sect within Judaism in the early days) was different from the Jewish God of the Torah. Instead of God being feared, God was to be loved and His love was to be explained. What greater love could there be than to sacrifice your son (manifestation of the self) for the wellbeing of the human race?
The way I see it: Jesus was not God himself. Jesus was 'one with' God in that Jesus was God's only begotten son, a direct descendant. Man is not a direct descendant of God. We are direct descendants of the animals which naturally evolved on Earth, altered by the hand of God to become like Him. We are Dr. Frankenstein's monster, Jesus is not. As the story goes, after God created Man, God placed Man higher then the angels of heaven. God ordered the angles to bow before Man in acceptance of Man's status and authority. Lucifer objected, defying God and claiming that he would rise above God. Lucifer convinced 1/3rd of the angels of heaven to side with him. All were cast out of heaven; coin the term Nephilim. Lucifer and the fallen angels, any of whom can be referred to as Satan, found a way to force God to destroy His own creation. If Satan could make Man sin, the Law of God would demand that Man be put to death. With a bite of a forbidden fruit, Man fell from grace and the penalty of death now applied. God, being all-knowing, had a plan in place before He even created Man; perhaps before He ever created Lucifer himself. God sacrificed Jesus in the performance of paying the penalty of sin for all humans. We don't need to stone adulterers or homosexuals because Jesus already paid the death penalty God's law requires, in their place. All men are sinners, so by the law all men deserve to die. Jesus paying that debt to the law in our place allows us to live.
Exactly. Is Jesus PBUH was god, but God can kill who he wishes (I admit, that sounds wrong but atm I can't word it any better) what would prevent God from killing Jesus if He wanted to? You have a funny twist to the verse, I must say... If that is the case, God is all of us, because he has power over all of us. He is Jesus, Mary, all the people. Maybe next time, instead of once again trying to make this question fit your personal opinions, I would appreciate an attempted answer. Thanks.
That verse is not part of Christian theology it is from the Quran that of Islam theology. It was invented not by Christian church but by Muslim. Indeed, there was a man name Jesus of Nazareth that was crucified because he up setted the Jewish religious leaders the Pharisees and they handed Jesus to the Romans to be crucified since Rome was their ruler. And this man, Jesus of Nazareth is the same man that we Christians worship and accept as Jesus Christ the Son of God, that Muslims reject and yet admit according to their Quran that a decoy a look like was crucified in Jesus place, that story contradicts as to why that decoy did not testify to the Pharisees and Romans that he is not God since Islam claim the same claim as the Pharisees that Jesus is not God and because that was what the Pharisees were upset about him for claiming to be God and that was the reason why they wanted him to be crucified. The law of that time is the same law of today's Islam, in Islam apostasy and blasphemy = death and they still practice that today. Today, though we see accuse blasphemers get pardon after they recant their sins. This is something that the decoy could have done too but he didn't he died as Jesus Christ the son of God. And again, these are just many contradiction in Islam that Muslims have blinded themselves because of the way Islam was spread by force and for thousand of years it got ingrained into their tradition and identity that many Muslims find difficult to separate themselves from. This verse is double talking (1) trying to say, Jesus is not the son of God because if he is, what would stop God from killing him because God would not have a son and if Jesus claim he is his son then Jesus is blaspheming. (2) That Jesus is the son of God and for that there is no reason for God to want to kill him because He send Jesus to be the special prophet to deliver His message. In Sura 5:116 is asking Jesus if he ever claim to be the son of God, and Jesus will say that he only claim to worship God only. Why didn't Jesus said the same thing to the Pharisees? And why didn't the decoy did the same? This would have destroy Christian claim that Jesus is God. By claiming to have send a decoy to die in Quranic-Jesus place only confirms that Muslim do accept that a man name Jesus of Nazareth was crucified and the verse Sura 5:116 proof that, that man was crucified because he claim to be God, but as we can see Muslims contradicts themselves by refusing to accept or admit that, they'll say Jesus send a decoy and yet they'll say no such historical records that a Jesus was crucified then why send a decoy for??? 5:116 And behold! God will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of God'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden. Sura 4:156-159 "That they rejected Faith; That they uttered against Mary A grave false charge; That they said (in boast): 'We killed Christ Jesus The son of Mary, The Messenger of Allah.' But they killed him not, Nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. Nay, Allah raised him up Unto Himself; and Allah Is Exalted in Power, Wise. And there is none of the people of the book (Jews and Christians) But must believe in him (Jesus) Before his death; And on the Day of Judgment He (Jesus) will be a witness Against them." Sura 4:156 - 159; clearly, God is saying that they did not kill Jesus because they can not kill him and did not understand Jesus. God is right, Jesus can not die he proof that with his resurrection, "It was made to appear" . And God raise him up unto Himself, this refer to the resurrection.
what’s the problem with god incarnating and dying how is god killing himself worse then god being killed by the romans i don’t understand what the question is supposed to prove
No, the question is clear. Sorry, I meant what makes no sense to me is the idea that Yeshuah was the Son of God and that God intended that Yeshuah, being the Son of God, being a manifestation of some sort of God, wanted Yeshuah to be tried and executed as a man. I've tried to understand that in a common-sense way and the points I listed are the outcome of that attempt.
Thank you WanRen. I do understand the position of Yeshuah in Islam and I'm familiar with the Gospels, though not as much as I should be to be putting arguments here. The contradictions in the account of the divinity of Yeshuah and his execution are what are confusing. As I stated before, I'm strongly of the opinion that Yeshuah didn't claim divinity, that it was bestowed upon him later by the early Church.
It was after Jesus resurrected and showed himself to the Apostles that they all become strong and faithful believers in the divinity of Jesus Christ, Christians will then be persecuted from the 1st to the 3rd century by the Romans because Christians worship Jesus Christ. The Apostles and later Christians did not bestowed divinity to Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ proof to them his divinity with his resurrection with out the resurrection there would be no Christianity and Jesus Christ will just be Jesus of Nazareth crucified and died. Notice how Jesus Christ claim divinity, he will not say it himself (is it a sign of humbleness or being smart?) but he will let others say it. When he ask Peter who do you think I am? And when Peter answer that he is the Son of God, Jesus responded positively, and said to Peter that you know who I am and the only reason you know because my Father told you so. The same thing with Thomas, Thomas doubted and after he saw and touch Jesus, he kneel and worship Jesus "my Lord and my God", Jesus did not demand to be worship he will reveal his diviness and let the people decide "blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe".
One of the historical difficulties with the accounts is that it is unlkely that the Romans would have allowed Yeshua to be placed in a tomb. Apparently the post-crucifixion practice was to dispose of the bodies on a heap and allow carrion animals and birds to deal with them.
No, lol, raised unto Himself refers to Jesus PBUH being raised to Heaven. How can he be resurrected if he didn't die? You have imaginative interpretations of Quran
That is what's the usual practice done to criminals and enemies of Rome, but what happen here was that Pilate did not accept Jesus as a criminal, rebel or threat to Rome. Pilate only agreed to crucified Jesus to satisfy the Pharisees, remember Pilate try to save Jesus by offering the Pharisees a criminal or Jesus, they chose to save the criminal. Pilate "I wash my hands of his blood". Also, when it was getting dark the Romans want to break the legs of the crucified including Jesus to make sure they are dead or died. They didn't broke Jesus legs because John who was there intervene and convince the soldier no need to break Jesus legs because he is already "dead instead the soldier stab Jesus to make sure he is dead, chances are the spear did not fully penetrated Jesus heart plus since Jesus was already clinical dead his heart has already stop the spear thrust did not really cause any serious damage or injury. Joseph of Arimathea a wealthy and influential Hebrew successfully convince Pilate to hand Jesus body to him, because Pilate never accepted the crime of Jesus he agreed. Jesus was given a full burial accorded to a none criminal. Could it be that Joseph of Arimathea successfully brought Jesus body down early enough and gave Jesus some drugs or medication to revive himself? At the same time, Joseph of Arimathea left some explosives type chemicals for Jesus to use when he awake and rise up to be use to role the stone away? The Bible explain that "a flush of light then the tomb's stone roll open". After Jesus resurrected, he never continue to do any public ministry, he did not went to the Temple to show himself to the Pharisees, he stayed with his Apostles and some close followers after that he left and disappear and left the ministry and spread of Christianity to his Apostles. Jesus and his Apostles have nothing materials to gain for what they did but everything to lose including suffering and dying a painful and horrible death. So, we can technically scratch out the wealth, power reason for Jesus and his Apostles goal.
Jesus did not die not because he was not crucified as Muslims claim but because he is Son of God and Jesus resurrected = God raise Himself up. What is your understanding why Quranic-Jesus need a decoy to be crucified? Why didn't the decoy testify to the authorities that he is not God? Why didn't Quranic-Jesus testify to the Pharisees that he is not God just like what he told God? Isn't it that Islam's claim that Jesus is not God is identical with that of the Pharisees, if that is so then why would the Pharisees want to crucified Quranic-Jesus? If a decoy was send then this mean that Muslims accept that a man was crucified and that man was crucified because of blasphemy, this would mean going back to my above questions. 5:116 And behold! God will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of God'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden. From the very beginning Muslims have no explanations except to accept or submit; remember no where in the Quran will you find that the spirit that appear to Mohammed ever identify himself to be angel Gabriel, in fact Mohammed strongly believe it was a jinn and it was Khadija (Mohammed's first wife) and his Christian cousin Waraqa that convince him it was an angel and ever since Muslims assume it was angel Ganriel just like Muslims assume that the Bible is corrupt although Mohammed never proclaim it to be so in his Quran or that Muslims should write a new book called Quran no where in the Quran did Mohammed claim that the Quran should be written. What was reveal was that Muslims should read from the reveal book called Bible. Th worse part is that, Quran is the only "holy" book that specifically order Muslims to attack and destroy Christians and Jews, Christian and Jews are specifically single out and mention many times. The Quran is not difficult to understand because the verses are all stand alone it is written like a chant with an hypnotic or trance effect when read over and over again the reader with weak mind will get enchanted that is why Muslims just read it and submit, accept without fully questioning or understanding it all these is re-enforce by Muslim authorities against anyone especially Muslims who dare to question Islam or Mohammed.
Here is something very interesting, it would seem that Muslim scholars have been reconstructing the Quran meaning, one such verse Sura 96:1 -4 in it the traditional interpretation is "read" but now it has been change to recite. It would seem this change came about after it was notice that it conflicts with reality. because by saying "read" it would mean that the spirit had a book or some kind of reading material with him for Mohammed to read. And as we all know base on Islamic history, Mohammed was illiterate and that he supposedly recited what the spirit dictated to him. Sura 96:1- 4 Recite in the name of thy Lord who created [created] man from blood coagulated. Recite! Thy Lord is wondrous kind Who, by the pen, has taught mankind things they knew not (being blind) Here is another interpretation from Al 'Alaq Surah 96. The Clot, Read, Proclaim 96:1 Proclaim! (or read!) in the name of thy Lord and Cherisher, Who created- Iqra/ bi-ismi rabbika allathee khalaqa Mohammed's first encounter with the spirit as expanded and explain from the Hadith: Hadith of Bukhari, 9.111: Narrated 'Aisha: The commencement of the Divine Inspiration to Allah's Apostle was in the form of good righteous (true) dreams in his sleep. He never had a dream but that it came true like bright day light. He used to go in seclusion (the cave of) Hira where he used to worship(Allah Alone) continuously for many (days) nights. He used to take with him the journey food for that (stay) and then come back to (his wife) Khadija to take his food like-wise again for another period to stay, till suddenly the Truth descended upon him while he was in the cave of Hira. The angel came to him in it and asked him to read. The Prophet replied, "I do not know how to read." (The Prophet added), "The angel caught me (forcefully) and pressed me so hard that I could not bear it anymore. He then released me and again asked me to read, and I replied, "I do not know how to read," whereupon he caught me again and pressed me a second time till I could not bear it anymore. He then released me and asked me again to read, but again I replied, "I do not know how to read (or, what shall I read?)." Thereupon he caught me for the third time and pressed me and then released me and said, "Read: In the Name of your Lord, Who has created (all that exists). Has created man from a clot. Read and Your Lord is Most Generous...up to..... ..that which he knew not." (96.15) Then Allah's Apostle returned with the Inspiration, his neck muscles twitching with terror till he entered upon Khadija and said, "Cover me! Cover me!" They covered him till his fear was over and then he said, "O Khadija, what is wrong with me?" Then he told her everything that had happened and said, 'I fear that something may happen to me." Khadija said, 'Never! But have the glad tidings, for by Allah, Allah will never disgrace you as you keep good relations with your Kith and kin, speak the truth, help the poor and the destitute, serve your guest generously and assist the deserving, calamity-afflicted ones." If Mohammed was illiterate, then why didn't the spirit knew about it? If the spirit was Gabriel the angel then why didn't he introduce himself? Why didn't he made Mohammed literate? Why for 25 years Mohammed never learn to read and write? It is very clear, that it was Khadija who encourage Mohammed that the spirit was an angel and it was Khadija not the spirit who successfully convince Mohammed that he was to be a prophet.
