"a well regulated militia"

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Rampart, Mar 25, 2021.

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  1. Hotdogr

    Hotdogr Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Ignorance of the history of that phrase is understandable. After all, those words have different meaning today than they did to the people who wrote them into our Constitution.
     
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  2. Hotdogr

    Hotdogr Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Mandatory training on safety, usage, and law is already required for every concealed carry permit holder.
     
  3. Adfundum

    Adfundum Moderator Staff Member Donor

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    If you mean the federal government in the first paragraph, I agree. From what I've read, the greatest concern was in keeping those powers in check. In moving away from Monarchies and Elitist Aristocracy, the focus was to not grant the authority to override the states.

    The southern states did have big concerns about arms and slaves. There is no question about that. I'm not throwing that out as a racial trigger, but as support for the idea that the 2A was more of a promise not to take gun rights authority away from the states, and not a guarantee of the right for all to keep and bear arms. It was an economic interest because the South was still almost totally an agrarian economy and slavery was essential to their success.

    The Northern states had concerns that the reliance on slavery made the South vulnerable to efforts by the British to disrupt the slave trade and damage the South's economy. At the same time, there were efforts to abolish slavery, which required there be compromises and limits to the power the federal had over the states. But to keep the British from reclaiming the colonies, the North and South had to form a Union in spite of some serious disagreements.

    In that sense, I don't see the 2A as having authority over the states to decide gun ownership. I see it as a promise not to take that power away from the states.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2021
  4. Josh77

    Josh77 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    100% agree. Like modernpaladin, I am of the belief that firearms safety courses should be mandatory in high school, or even junior high school.
     
  5. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    That's not the meaning of "regulated" in the Constitution.
     
  6. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    YES meaning the citizenry is to be properly armed and able to protect themselves from any and all dangers. The Revolutionary War started over an attempted seizure of the citizens arms.
     
  7. RodB

    RodB Well-Known Member Donor

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    A side point, but this begs the question -- long since swept away to oblivion -- of what constitutional authority does the federal government have to outlaw marijuana in the first place.
     
  8. RodB

    RodB Well-Known Member Donor

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    The 2nd amendment does not require the states to control anything.
     
  9. Soupnazi

    Soupnazi Well-Known Member

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    The second amendment requires no such thing.
     
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  10. RodB

    RodB Well-Known Member Donor

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    Very true, and also very handy and appealing to the gun control zealots.
     
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  11. Adfundum

    Adfundum Moderator Staff Member Donor

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    Good point and that begs the question--what constitutional authority does the federal government have to prevent the states from controlling the ownership of guns?
     
  12. ChiCowboy

    ChiCowboy Well-Known Member

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    By classifying it as a sched 1 drug.
     
  13. Hotdogr

    Hotdogr Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    None. The most abused and ignored amendment is the 10th.
     
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  14. Hotdogr

    Hotdogr Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There is a word for people who persist in their ignorance, even after having been educated. One that moderators here seem to dislike.
     
  15. RodB

    RodB Well-Known Member Donor

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    This gets a bit abstruse, but the federal government cannot directly prohibit any state from passing any law. It all would be a constitutional question which SCOTUS decides, not the feds.
     
  16. RodB

    RodB Well-Known Member Donor

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    The federal government has no real constitutional authority to classify any drug.
     
  17. ChiCowboy

    ChiCowboy Well-Known Member

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    It sure appears they do.
     
  18. RodB

    RodB Well-Known Member Donor

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    Yes. The 10th is completely moot and simply now a relic.
     
  19. RodB

    RodB Well-Known Member Donor

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    Well, no, they do not, not real actual constitutional authority. There have been many many cases where SCOTUS has handily and conveniently said they have constitutional authority; so much so that the enumerated powers explicitly spelled out in the constitution are now moot museum artifacts (although there have been a few where SCOTUS upheld them). But that doesn't change the reality.
     
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  20. Adfundum

    Adfundum Moderator Staff Member Donor

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    Agreed. I've never been terribly firm as far as the idea of originalism, but it certainly brings up some questions about recent rulings.
     
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  21. ChiCowboy

    ChiCowboy Well-Known Member

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    You're certainly free to believe that, but lacking any challenge to the law, it is constitutional. For all I know, it has been challenged and survived judicial scrutiny.

    That's the reality.
     
  22. RodB

    RodB Well-Known Member Donor

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    As a curious aside, what difficulties do you have interpreting the Constitution's words by what the words meant when they were written by the framers?
     
  23. RodB

    RodB Well-Known Member Donor

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    In the final analysis something is constitutional if and only if it accords with the words in the Constitution. SCOTUS is but a construct that we have decided can rule on what is constitutional based on their thinking and beliefs at the time, which may or may not be in accordance with the actual words and meaning of the words in the Constitution. SCOTUS often rules something constitutional or unconstitutional based on what outcome it prefers, and then, sometimes, does a song and dance shuffle to make it sound like their ruling follows the words in the Constitution. A good example is the SCOTUS ruling on the Affordable Care Act which as written was unconstitutional so Roberts literally rewrote it from the bench to bring it into agreement with the constitution. (Though, as an aside, his rewrite made it unconstitutional again because the now tax bill/act did not originate in the House, but that all got lost in the shuffle and the clouds and is worth only idle commentary.) The quintessential example is of course the Dred Scott ruling that said black slaves were not citizens or even people. There are countless others. But, we have all agreed that we must abide by, right or wrong, whatever SCOTUS says because there is really no alternative; there are no checks or balances on the 3rd Branch of the government. (As an another aside, there are suggested amendments in the Convention of the States Project that put some checks and balances on SCOTUS.)
     
  24. spiritgide

    spiritgide Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You fail to understand the phrase you quote.
    A militia isn't a standing army or official or organized reserve; it is a military unit formed from the public citizens who are armed, if and when one is called for by authorities. When called, it becomes under the authority of the government- Regulated. The armed citizens make this possible, they provide this reserve source of defenders that can back up the standing military in times of dire need- and that is why they are necessary.

    President Lincoln issued such a call early in the civil war, because the standing army was outnumbered. He asked for 70,000 volunteers to form militias- which happened quickly, doubling the size of the Union defense in a matter of days. These men brought their own arms, and they came from many states. You have heard of terms like the "Pennsylvania Volunteers" and hundreds of others.

    A militia is a group of armed citizens that enter military service in time of need. One might say- they are the ultimate reserve troops, volunteers from the citizens of the nation.

    Violence is not a gun thing- it's a people thing. If people all regulated themselves, no laws would even be needed- but some will not, and they will find weapons. If you are their victim and have no weapon, we will hope you have great suit of armor which can withstand bullets, knives, clubs or anything that person may use on you because those people do not follow gun laws. They support the idea, so that their prey will be disarmed, and it will be safer to kill you.
     
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