You may not invite someone in, and then kill them for any, or no reason.(*) The woman invited the unborn in when she willingly had sex and became pregnant. And the only reason that you are allowed to kill someone in self-defense is if your actual life is being threatened which is not the case in a normal pregnancy. Once again and as ALWAYS, your argument FAILS.
129 million births per year worldwide and 42 million aborted. I look at those two numbers and see a very noticeable impact and affect on society. What sort of math are you using that suggests that the difference between 129 million and 171 million is not noticeable? Or as I suspect, were you using no math and no data at all and simply making it up as you go? A miscarriage of the law is currently happening just like when slavery was deemed legal.
Equating being pregnant to slavery is a false statement and is untrue. If you don't believe me ask your mother if she felt like a slave (and was treated like one) once she was pregnant with you. Once again, your argument simply FAILS.
You hold the position that you WANT women to be allowed to legally kill their innocent children and you want that to be legal so that a mother may kill her child for any or NO reason. You are just too afraid to actually **say that** on a public board. The choice is to kill for no better reason than convenience. To support the choice is to support the action. You cannot divorce yourself from the consequences of the actions that you support.(*)
I responded to his post exactly how I meant to respond. Rather than answering my question he posted a rant not stating his position OR answering my question about whether one human should have the right to kill another human for no better reason than convenience. His post deserved the EXACT answer I gave him - - - Updated - - - Refer to your dictionary, a person is a human being. That is the primary definition. If you go way down the list, you might find the suggestion of personality, traits, etc, but all definitions after the first are still reliant on the first. No one can be a person who is not a human being. AGAIN your argument FAILS.
Just because I don't marry a woman doesn't mean her husband should have the right to beat her and in the same way just because I don't adopt any children does not change the facts that unborns are human beings and human beings in this country have the right to live and not be killed.
Clearly you are able to read but you cannot comprehend. When the court decided roe, they made the decision based on the assumption that unborns were not human beings because they knew perfectly well that to admit that they were human beings was to admit that they were persons in the eyes of the law. In fact as your OWN LINK shows, in his majority decision, Justice Blackmun acknowledged that should the question of personhood (humanity) of the unborn be answered, that roe would collapse as the child would be entitled to the protection of the 14th amendment.(*) Unborns are human beings which by definition makes them a person. - - - Updated - - - If I were pregnant I would never decide to kill an innocent human being because of my convenience and any woman who does that is it monster.
Criminalizing wife beating doesn't solve the problem of spousal abuse either, and it does't heal the bruises and broken bones of women who are battered. Show me a utopia where criminalizing spousal abuse, murder, armed robbery, child abuse, arson, theft, etc. actually stops the activity.(*) If you are going to argue that a thing need not be criminalized unless the law is going to prevent a thing from ever happening again, then you are arguing to strike all laws from the books. Criminalizing a behavior isn't about stopping it. It is about providing a means by which to punish those who disregard the rights of others and do it anyway.
Another lie. The unborn is most certainly not a part of the woman's body. It would be nice if you only got ONE thing wrong but EVERY DAMNED THING that you say is utterly wrong. If a woman is not abortion to save her life then she is aborting because of what she wants and what she wants is what is convenient to her. This isn't rocket science.
I've made my position abundantly clear. I am not afraid to state and/or discuss the positions I hold and the reasons I hold them. However, I don't appreciate it when people like you try to play the game of twisting my position into something I don't recognize and then berate me for holding the goofy position you've given me. No, anybody else wishing to engage in a reasonable discussion about this, I'm available, but unless Fedor50 can provide some indication towards intellectual honesty, I'm done with this portion of the thread.
The Legal Eagle speaks. Just not in any way you can demonstrate, Mr. "I'll Continue to Remain Willfully Ignorant Because I'm Special".
Actually the mind is the core of what it means to be a being at all. The fair assumption that other people think and feel and that is why it is wrong to hurt them is really the core of ethics. The human origin part we probably don't need to argue about. What criteria do you use for a human being?
Criminalizing physical abuse, murder, armed robbery, arson, theft, etc. is intended to REDUCE the number of acts against society. We have every reason to believe those laws are effective in doing that while laws prohibiting abortion do not reduce the number probably for the reason they are not prosecuted, and the reason they are not prosecuted is the impossibility of obtaining evidence. Criminalizing a behavior IS about at least reducing the behavior and fear of the punishment is the motive for avoiding that behavior. We don't criminalize acts so society can have the joy of inflicting punishment, society inflicts punishment so we can control the acts.
I congratulate you on your well thought out and well expressed replies. I do disagree that "far to many women take this decision much too lightly." Of course a few will have a casual attitude, but I feel that most women take the responsibility seriously and it is not necessary for laws such as waiting periods, forced information (usually misinformation), etc. "A mother's love for her unborn child" or IOW "bonding" does kick in at some point which is why late-term abortions are virtually always for medical reasons.
A mind isn't just having a brain, but rather a sufficiently developed and functional brain. Feeling pain requires not only a nerve to the body part but also thalamocortical connections to process the input. These connections are not present until around 20 weeks, and abortions usually occur well before that. The ears are capable of processing sound at around 18 weeks, but the brain will not be able to process it until a bit later. A fetal movement in reaction to a stimulus is not evidence of consciousness, since simple reflexes develop before the mind. No it requires a mother's body, which is an extraordinary amount of support that technology cannot yet match. It is not ethical to subordinate the rights of an actual person to the rights of a potential person. We don't imprison people for wasting sperm or ovulating without trying to get pregnant. My views on this topic are completely based upon logic and science, and a medical understanding of ethics. As a man I have never had a need for an abortion, nor has any partner I have had. A fetus is not a person any more than sperm or other groups of human cells without independent consciousness.
If you invite someone into your home and they start beating you you have the right to kill them. Well, maybe YOU would just let them beat you because you did invite them in but other people wouldn't ... . No, there wasn't anyone to "invite" and consent to one act (sex) is not consent to any other act. Your lack of knowledge of the law equals your lack of knowledge of abortion. No, you may kill someone who is harming you if you FEAR your life is in danger....see, you don't have to wait until they kill you to fight back as YOU seem to think.... ALL pregnancies carry the risk of death and ALL pregnancies cause women harm. Now, I know you will disagree but if you have NO knowledge of what pregnancy entails don't embarrass yourself by thinking women's bodies aren't affected by pregnancy.
W H A T effect did all those people WHO NEVER EXISTED have on society....well, I mean besides NOT contributing to air pollution and over population ...a good thing....and not harming women or forcing them into poverty or not having more kids end up in the social services system, etc...
Is English not your original language? Here is what I posted AGAIN Quote Originally Posted by FoxHastings View Post This is why you will never comprehend. I NEVER SAID that all women who are pregnant are slaves. I guess you HAVE to lie in order to have any argument or rebuttal??? I said """"Forcing women to give birth AS SLAVE OWNERS did is slavery "" In VERY plain English I said that FORCING women to give birth is slavery.... ..I NEVER said being pregnant is slavery...and you are misrepresenting what I posted ....and CANNOT prove I ever said being pregnant is slavery ...and you know what that makes you.....I mean besides pointing out that you have to lie to have any kind of "argument...""
A dictionary is not the law. I guess you think if a woman says she has a "bun in the oven" she'll give birth to a dinner roll...... a fetus is a fetus and has no rights as a person until it's born. BTW, when you have to repeat that the other posters argument fails , it's meaningless until you can prove them wrong...and it makes you look like you're desperate
""""Just because I don't marry a woman doesn't mean her husband should have the right to beat her"""" WHA....?!!!!! You may now resume typing a bunch of empty words in a futile attempt to convince others you care about human life.
You've noticed what I noticed with that poster but I can't tell if it's deliberate lying due to having no argument or a complete lack of English language skills...
If the fetus isn't part of the woman's body then it should be able to be removed and set on a shelf to grow on it's own. Nope, it isn't rocket science and very true. You posted a True Thing!!!!!! """she is aborting because of what she wants and what she wants is what is convenient to her"" ....as it should be
You are not fooling anyone. The only reason you are pointing your righteous finger at others, crying murder, is to appear sanctimonious. Nothing more! You would add thousands more unwanted children to society, but expect others to raise them. You care up to actually having to do anything more than post on a forum. You can call them human beings if you want. You can call abortion murder if you feel that way. You can even call those who support choice murders if it makes you feel better. What you cannot to, is truthfully claim that you care about these precious human beings. Wear your pro-life T-shirt, post on forums, and shake your fist all you want. The sad truth is that you really dont care and your attempts to appear caring have failed.
Anyone who would force a woman to gestate and give birth against her will is way more of a monster than a woman who aborts ever could be. And you don't know what you would do unless you've been in the situation. Lots of antichoicers abort when it suits them. http://www.prochoiceactionnetwork-canada.org/articles/anti-tales.shtml
