An appeal to Christan "conservatives"

We can continue in PMs if you would like, but the premise of my argument is that infinite power and knowledge equal infinite responsibility.

In the context of an existence started and watched over by a divine being, free will is merely an illusion created by our limited perspectives.

 

Read the post I was responding to.

 

Romans 13
1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.
2 Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval,
4 for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer.
5 Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience.
6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing.
7 Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.

Titus 3
1 Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work,

Peter 2
13 Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution,[a] whether it be to the emperor as supreme,
14 or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good.
15 For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people.
16 Live as people who are free, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but living as servants[c] of God.
17 Honor everyone. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor.

Sorry... what was it you were saying?

This lends itself to Serfin's premise... as ALL authority is granted by the ONLY authority, God accepts responsibility for the actions of that authority.

 

Good, so if we establish a society governed by natural law, it must be the case that it will have been God's will. Or, were the founders of this union somehow defying God's will when they established it?

 

You mean when they did all that killing and stealing to defy authority?

You are moving the goalposts here... like your second or third post said following government is following the devil.

Let's go one at a time. Do you wish to revise your original statement?

 

How on earth can there be Christian conservatives? It is a nonsense, like 'honest fundamentalist'.

 

I suppose that if God wanted the entire world to be like Israel (or even the Middle East), then He would have made it that way. Apparently, He didn't.

And He knew that human nature (in many) was opposed to the same.

No, sanity has nothing to do with it. Some very "sane" adults, just happen to be ass__les. Too bad we can't just surgically remove that from some people.

For proper justice, there typically needs to be a counsel of some type. We cannot have individuals taking retribution into their own hands at every turn; that would be chaos.

Some people naturally have a propensity to do those things. That is their solution to certain conditions they face... the only thing stopping many are the consequences they know will be imposed upon them. Others are spiritually attuned to do what is truly fair and just; that would be ideal, but not all human beings are like that. Secular (legal) methods do apply in all cases. That is reality.

I've lived a relatively long time... and that isn't my experience. What are you really talking about here?

The would be correct sometimes. Overall, I'd say we DO need governments; human nature makes them necessary.

Using what? And WHY (considering history) would "Christians" be better at it than any other group of HUMAN beings? Did Jesus say, 'Go forth and POLICE the lives of the entire world?!' (No, He did not.)

Are you supporting the work of the devil in what you communicated above? (I think that is a good question.)

 

No. We should oppose killing and stealing, therefore we should oppose unilaterally coercive government.

 

This was your statement.

The bible is in clear disagreement with your assessment. You must either revise this statement, or demonstrate that God is wrong.

 

How does not attacking people, not stealing from them, or not committing fraud relate to 'natural' law? Hyenas and jackals steal from lions, humans attack and steal from cows and sheep, monkeys steal from each other. Natural law needs more interpretation than either religious or constitutional law.

 

Max I'm just at the end of three year study of those books. They don't have a government like ours to be sure but they have quite an extensive law enforcement establishment, a fully functioning theocracy, with the priests as the final arbiters on economic clashes between the various tribes. and a quite lenghthy set of laws both civil and criminal.

 

Johnny, that is a very good question. The answer is the same to everyone who asks me this question. We don't know exactly how God plans to accomplish his will in the future. Will He bring about about His kingdom by natural means or by spiritual means? I don't know. Does He want me to support this ruler or that ruler? I don't know. All I know is that He does not want me to support killing and stealing, so I oppose them.

 

Fair enough. That statement, as it stands, is wrong according to the Bible. Does the answer I just gave to Johnny C in post 62 shed any light on my position?

 

I won't question your 'faith'... my only problem with you or any other person, is when they are being coercive with their beliefs. I won't tolerate that.

 

How am I being coercive? Right now I'm trying to reason with you. Are you still under the misapprehension that I want to establish Biblical law, or did you read the other posts where I tell everyone that that is not what I want to do.

 

Well, it's not meant to be so 'personal'; perhaps I should have said that in a manner which didn't point the comment at you.

Even so, there are MANY religious people who DO seek to control others, by advocating for laws which will lead to the same. I am strongly against using politics/law to promote the imposition of one's religious beliefs upon others.

 

I understand. I'm of the opinion that we should all stop trying to make law.

 

Ok... you have a very subversive position on government, but you are reasonable. I applaud your adherence to reason.

I am a rational anarchist, and an atheist... however for obvious reasons I am ideologically aligned with your goal... however, there is always governance... I do not believe our society can self-govern with appropriate application, which will leave communities to govern themselves... which lends power, I find, to the stronger groups who abuse it without the force of rule of law in place. The weaker members of society will be subjugated, as they have throughout history to this point. Women will be put back 1000 years. Left solely to altruism, people don't do very well.

I hope one day we are in a position where such freedom could exist without bringing forth the horrors of hell on Earth... but I do not think we are ready.

 

I think it's possible to still have rule of law without that rule being monopolized by one group.

 

So, would any of the Christian Conservatives like to address this?

 

I'll go with the Devil, thanks. He throws great parties, and I can't be doing with all that evangelist piety and genuflection. He also doesn't annoy the (*)(*)(*)(*) out of me on a Sunday morning, knocking at my door with a vacuous grin and asking me if I've 'spoken to god' that day. I'll leave talking to thin air for the deranged.

 

Thanks for bumping the thread anyway though.

 

Not even close. Read before you post. It is kinda funny, though.

 

As if it was possible for Jesus to get any cooler.

Although I do have to wonder what that pic is supposed to imply. That Jesus was a liberal? I'm not sure how that gels with the whole promotion of secular humanism, moral relativism, and shameless sin.