Are the Palestinians the Jews NOT expelled from Judaea after Bar Kochba Revolt?

Good question Klipkap......I had better read this article to get a better idea of the answer????!!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_diaspora

 

Many thanks for the response.
Once I found problems in tracing an expulsion of the Jews in 125 CE, I then went on to check the even more common preconception that I had, namely that after the 66-70 CE rebellion and the fall of Jerusalem, Jews were expelled from Palestine .... as a whole. I found that this was apparently not the case at all. So I am left with my preconception in tatters. I am about to go back to Josephus to see if he can shed any light on the issue.

 

Yes of course Josephus Flavius = Joseph Ben Matatiahu the Jewish turncoat .

 

Klipkap.......if you participage at all on Facebook I would love to read your analysis of how I suspect that the rebuilding of the Jerusalem Third Temple can be linked to a plan to fulfill an Islamic prophecy regarding the turning green of the deserts of the Islamic nations in the "latter days!"


https://apps.facebook.com/forumforpages/180898612019485/6d0e6b1a-c408-4589-b800-9cc294039ec0/0
Canadian support for rebuilding of Jerusalem Third Temple Complex can alter Middle East political formula.

 

A system of lots is a solemn appeal to G-d for a decision......do you think that it is mere coincidence that Josephus Flavius was the last guy to commit suicide HBendor???!!!

The 900 plus Jews at Masada did cast lots to see who would die first didn't they?

Or is my memory of this detail flawed?????!!!!

 

I am quite willing to learn of a better and more complete reference to the "disaster" of 70CE. Since you seems to have one, I would be most appreciative to be shown the light.

Many thanks

 

Not really I am avoiding arguments and another defamation of Israel... I suggest you make your own researches.

 

Well here it is...


Who was Josephus?:


Josephus is also known as Flavius Josephus and Joseph Ben Matthias (Yosef Ben Mattityahu). Josephus was a leader of Jewish Revolt who was captured by the Romans at Jotapata in 67 CE and quickly ingratiated himself with Vespasian. Josephus predicted that Vespasian would become emperor; this happened in 69 and Josephus was subsequently released.

When did Josephus live?:


Josephus was born during the first year of the reign of Roman emperor Gaius, so either in 37 or 38 CE, and died around 100 CE. He was part of a priestly family and claimed to be descended from the Hasmonean dynasty.

Where did Josephus live?:


Josephus was leader of Jewish forces in Galilee, so it’s likely that he spent much of his early adult life there. As a teenager, he spent time living with the Essenes in the Judean wilderness, though. After being captured by the Romans he traveled with their headquarters for the duration of the war and then spent the rest of his life living in Rome.

What did Josephus do?:


When Josephus was young he was a diplomat in Rome and then led Jewish forces against Rome. After he was captured, though, Josephus willingly served Roman authorities. First he acted as an interpreter for the Romans during the war. Afterward, he lived in Rome and wrote books about the war and the history of the Jews.

Why was Josephus important?:


Josephus wrote a number of important books about the Jews and their war with the Romans, books which continue to provide invaluable insight on the times and people. His first, The Jewish War, was obviously about the war itself. His second, The Antiquities of the Jews, is a 20-volume work about the Jewish scriptures and their post-biblical history. He wrote others, but these are the most famous and important — they are quoted time and time again by historians and religious scholars.
What was Josephus’ position on the Jews and their relations with Rome? Josephus was in a difficult situation: he was a Jew and never ceased to be loyal to Jewish interests; at the same time, he was dependent upon the good graces of Roman authorities. Throughout his works Josephus sought to encourage sympathy both for the Jews and Judaism; at the same time, though, he also didn’t hesitate to attack “extremists” among the Jews who encouraged revolution against just Roman control.

Although <the Jewish War> is very difficult read without a map, Josephus was a Jewish Turncoat who used trickery with his own soldiers by forsaking them in battles.
The <Antiquities of the Jews> is the best record in existence nowadays... people should peruse it from time to time.

 

Excellent. Many thanks, HBendor.

But I remain puzzled. Why, with all of this evidence that you just presented, do you maintain that Josephus was not an excellent source of history ... the best of the period in fact?

 

Read his books.

 

I see &#8230; interesting reply.
Then why did you ACTUALLY post:

Oh &#8230;. OK, I see. A funny Strawman.
I should have realised it.

So Josephus is a good source, is what you are saying? Good, so we can go back to him to see what he has to offer on the great Jewish exile from Palestine of 70 CE - I refer to that reason for the change in the demographics of Palestine and the massive input to the Jewish diaspora, and their disappearance from Palestine.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/Diaspora.html

http://thegloriousbattle.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/JewishDiasporaColor2000.jpg

"Encyclopedia of the Jewish Diaspora: Origins, Experiences and Culture" edited by Mark Avrum Ehrlich, P. 328

These are serious publications and institutions. So we can agree that the Jews were driven out of Palestine in 70 CE, right HBendor?

 

In the light of what happened after the Bar Kochba Revolt wasn't his tendency to discourage armed revolt against Rome rather wise and/or even perhaps prophetic?

My wife is from Quito, Ecuador. The Gypsy people of that city are known for having unusual abilities to tell people things about you that they cannot possibly know by the usual or normal means! There is also a movement in Israel to take back many Gypsy people as Israeli citizens due to their connection to the tribe of Levi?!

Many near death experiencers often seem to demonstrate what could be termed psychic ability after their NDE!

Personally.....I suspect that within fifty years we will know that psychic ability is not at all a strange thing but does in fact fit with String Theory!

 

You are getting there...
You can get 'The Jewish war' in a cheap <Penguin classics> publication
<The Jewish antiquities...> is 20 x volumes, check it out in a library

Josephus though a Jewish governor of Galilee, sided with the Romans after his capture and spared life. He spent the rest of his life in Rome and became a friend of Titus and Vespasian.
He is not always historically reliable, but his unique account of the war and of such figures as Herod, the Agrippas, Pontius Pilate and Vespasian remain an important source-book for a period and place of which we know little.

 

Son of a Star by Andrew Meisels dealing with the Bar Kochba Revolt was an interesting read!

A little naive and idealistic though on some issues.......

 

Where can I get the book... Do you have an ISBN...?

 

Many thanks. I found an online version of &#8220;The Jewish War&#8221; by Josephus here:
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_War_of_the_Jews/Book_VI#Chapter_1 I have just finished reading it &#8230;. Quite a slog!!

I studied Chapter 9 Verse 2 in particular detail because that is where Josephus describes the expulsion of the Jews. Indeed, Fronto reserved some of those over seventeen years of age for &#8220;the triumph&#8221; and sent the rest to &#8221;the Egyptian mines&#8221;. But this would seem to have depleted all of the non-teenage men. But in the very next sentence he writes that &#8220;Titus also sent a great number into the provinces.&#8221; Somehow the math is getting messed up. Also, Verse 4 and Chapter 10 makes clear that this only applied to the city of Jerusalem. It seems like Jerusalem was purged of all Jews.

But what of the rest of Palestine? Titus sent some from Jerusalem to &#8220;the provinces&#8221;. We know that the Jerusalem Talmud was written in the provinces. It is a collection of Rabbinic notes on the 2nd-century Mishnah. It was in fact written in Tiberias in Galilee in the School of Johanan ben Nappaha. (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem_Talmud). I then looked up &#8220;The Talmudic Academies in the Land of Israel&#8221;. They were yeshivot that served as centers for Jewish scholarship and the development of Jewish law in the Levant between the destruction of the Second Temple in c.70CE and the deposition of Raban Gamliel VI in c.425CE.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Palestine:

Not only that, but if all of the Jews were expelled from Palestine in 70-73AD, who on earth rebelled in 132-135 CE in the Bar Kochba revolt?

So all of those references &#8211; such as http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/Diaspora.html - &#8230;&#8230;

&#8230;. are a concoction of fiction ... lies if you feel strongly. The expulsion was from Jerusalem; not from all of Palestine, not so?
You seem to agree, HBendor, because in post #3 you wrote:

And I agree fully with you. All of my reading shows this to be the case.
There was no massive Diaspora caused in 70 CE. The main Diaspora happened centuries earlier - the Hellenic diaspora. The Cambridge History of Judaism notes that that much earlier exodus of Jews from Palestine [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Palestine]:

It is all clear to me now. You were correct, HB. There was no huge expulsion aafter the destruction of the second Temple. That is a MYTH.

Dennis, does this agree with your studies?

 

I really do not care if you agree with me, so do not pat yourself on the shoulder yet expecting my approbation.

The Jewish diaspora (or simply the Diaspora; Hebrew Galut &#1490;&#1500;&#1493;&#1514;; Yiddish Golus) was the historical exile and dispersion of Jews from the region of the Kingdom of Judah and Roman Judaea, as well as the later emigration from wider Eretz Israel.

The diaspora began with the 6th century BCE conquest of the ancient Kingdom of Judah by Babylon, the destruction of the First Temple (c. 586 BCE), and the expulsion of the population, as recorded in the Bible. The Babylonian ruler, Nebuchadnezzar, allowed the Jews to remain in a unified community in Babylon. Another group of Jews fled to Egypt, where they settled in the Nile delta. From 597 BCE onwards, there were three distinct groups of Hebrews: a group in Babylon and other parts of the Middle East, a group in Judaea, and another group in Egypt. While Cyrus the Persian allowed the Jews to return to their homeland in 538 BCE, most chose to remain in Babylon, becoming what is now known as the Mizrahi Jewish ethnic division. A large number of Jews in Egypt became mercenaries in Upper Egypt on an island called the Elephantine. Most of these Jews retained their religion, identity, and social customs; both under the Persians and the Greeks, they were allowed to conduct their lives according to their own laws.

In 63 BCE, Judaea became a protectorate of Rome, and in 6 CE was organized as a Roman province. The Jews began to revolt against the Roman Empire in 66 CE during the period known as the First Jewish&#8211;Roman War which culminated in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE. During the siege, the Romans destroyed the Second Temple and most of Jerusalem. In 132, the Jews rebelled against Hadrian. In 135, Hadrian&#8217;s army defeated the Jewish armies and Jewish independence was lost. Jerusalem was turned into a pagan city called Aelia Capitolina and the Jews were forbidden to live there, and Hadrian changed the country&#8217;s name from Judea to Syria Palestina.

Read Hadrian...

 

We agree on all of the facts, HBendor. Just as we agree on the content of the Wiki article that you saw fit to quote - the one in which I made highlights in bold red ... remember? You then objected to your own reference, calling it "scatological" or something similar. As a reminder, here it is again - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Palestine. It has two very interesting pieces of data:

Just as you described, HB. If I am not mistaken that comes from the Cambridge History of Judaism, a 4 or 5 volume of classic scholarship.

Once again, in full agreement with what you write. So what happened to them? Did the population of Palestine suddenly plummet because they had left? No, it didn't. There is a far more simple explanation. The Roman Empire became Christian, and a tax was levelled on the Jews.

I could not find ANY evidence for a massive emigration into the diaspora ... none.

"Vot, you vont me to pay extra tax? NOOOO meester, you have it wrong. I am a gut pagan Greek boy and my friend is a devout Christian boy. So, no tax, OK?"
See how the Jews remained in Palestine? They became camouflaged. Think I suck that as a joke out of my thumb? Here is the Cambridge History of Judaism again .... the same Wiki article that HB quoted:

'Nuff said

 

Dennis,

I am not surprised at the bit from the Cambridge History of Judaism which described the origin of the greatest diaspora of the Jews after the return of some of them from Babylon - namely the Helenistic diapora:

And the reason that I am not surprised by this is that to this very day more than half of all Jews voluntarily choose to live in their diaspora, presumably for similar reasons to 2500 years ago as described in that quote. So much for the real strength of the visceral pull of Judea and Samaria on them.

I found out that New York City is the second largest Jewish city in the world.

 

Last week I spent two nights away from home due to car trouble and was led to the most astonishing book regarding visions of the New Jerusalem as seen by orphans in China from 1919 to 1950 that I suspect have huge implications for whatever it is that G-d has planned for the Ezekiel Temple Complex described in Ezekiel chapters 40 - 48?????!!!!!

The Jerusalem Third Temple has something to do with the restoration of more direct communication with The G-d of Abraham/ Allah... and will play a huge role in ushering in the era of genuine peace described by the prophets!!!!!!!!!!???

http://www.christianforums.com/t7792844/
Visions of New Jerusalem seen by Pentecostal orphans in China 1919-

 

I have had the impression for some time now that New Age Thinkers are going to play a huge role in assisting in the "restoration of the lost tribes of Israel" and in whatever G-d wants for the third temple.

The way that this topic was approached in this New Age Facebook group is truly encouraging:

Earth We Are One
https://www.facebook.com/groups/108413109365671/permalink/185132091693772/

 

There were many Messianic claimants.. I think 13....

 

Zechariah was a prophet who began witnessing to Judah during the time of the rebuilding of the temple (about 520 B.C.) after the Jews returned from their Babylonian captivity. Zechariah called on the Jews to finish the task of reconstruction by encouraging them about the important future role of the temple.

 

Soooooooooooooooooooooo how come the Arabs so called Palestinians are owners of the Land of the Jews according to your posting above?hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

They want a piece of Israel let them fight for it!!!!!!!!!!

 

Most stayed in Babylon.. The numbers that returned were small. He was talking about the second temple ... not one far into the future.