And THAT is a conversation that is ongoing. My observation and argument, pro-bible, is not to make it the center of everyone's thoughts and lives, but to see it as a step in a social evolutionary process.
By replying to the post you put up. Try not to change the story after you have posted, it does not work for you.
And you shall read not lies of commies, but more serious literature, e.g. An Examination of the Alleged Discrepancies of the Bible / John Wesley Haley Or here: http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/apologetics/bible.htm
The Bible is full of contradictions. That is not debatable. You need to come to terms with this and face reality.
Are you God who wrote the Holy Bible to judge about his Work? I doubt it. Are you know God's plans about his Work? I doubt it. Therefore either to follow the Commandments of God or to prepare yourself to go to Hell. It's simple.
Are you now admitting to being biased and judgmental? It certainly seems so as you pass judgment on others Being fair and open minded is all we can attempt to do. You seem to lack knowledge of this bible of yours.
Was I judging anyone ? I don't recall that. And yes, I have point of view that may NOT be all inclusive to what others think. Sure, that MY limitation. This is the reason we talk about things, to inform each other to new ideas.
maybe I am too harsh on Maat . I totally concur with the emboldened, but I also applaud someone who re-examines his beliefs and searches for another faith or religion that better suits their values too. If you were born and raised a protestant no longer feel comfortable or enriched with Protestant teachings , and invest the time into learning Judaism and then convert. that's not easy either. Any change can result in a feeling of relief, spiritual growth and fresh understanding just like a change from theism to atheism can. . I applaud that as well. And I don't mind the marketing or promotion of any of these ideas, whether they are theist or atheist. I applaud 'proselytizing' (to use the loaded term as part of a system whereby ideas, values and views are exchanged and compete in a free society. Certainly I understand the passion of a reformer who has just 'found his way'. I was there too, and I was full of myself, and hypercritical of that Bible to the point of being obnoxious. Its really a commonplace exercise that most of us go through when we are discarding an old set of beliefs for a new one. We are validating our own growth and reminding ourselves as much as we are teaching anyone else. But he's been in this stage, he says for 30 years, and it is still mostly about bashing someone else's religious beliefs, picking them apart, finding the holes and exploiting those holes in the hopes of seeding doubt, and making people of faith feel a little more stupid or foolish than they did before. The problem is , if they are not in that place in their journey emotionally, where they are really ready for something else or something different, they are not going to conclude that their faith or bible is where the problem is. They will blame the atheist for' twisting' things, or themselves for not being better prepared, or better in debate., or anything else, but not their bible, not their faith, not their God. All you have done is made them feel defensive, angry, guilty, or impotent and strengthen their resolve never to allow their faith to be shaken by the Godless. I prefer that when we do our marketing, that we first debunk the stereotypes, refute the negative propaganda about agnostic or atheist options, and promote the positive in agnosticism or atheism as alternatives, so that when theists are ready to look for something else, we are right there. Too often, we sell our world view as the 'logically sound and intellectually impervious' choice. Our branding gimmick comes down to the choice that 'nobody can make fun of' and that is just not enough. We need to spend less time on finding holes in the Bible, Koran or Torah and spend more time teaching people the variety and diverse options in a non-theist world view. If we don't expect one form of theism to fit the spiritual needs of people, why do we market the most superficial and commonplace understanding of atheism to everyone? We need to talk about this: 17 kinds of atheism http://commonsenseatheism.com/?p=6487 Branches of agnosticism http://www.philosophybasics.com/branch_agnosticism.html heck, I don't even know a quarter of this myself because I never learned it! but if we want to capture the doubters, or those who no longer fill fulfilled, we get them to explore this panorama of ours, rather than just deciding to go from Pentecostal, to Unitarianism or Catholicism, or from Shiite to Sunni. We have to market our products better, so that people know how many there are.
Well, you might find out upon your death. Or, if there is nothingness, you will not find out. So, buy the ticket and take the ride. Somehow, you lose anyway you go, being an atheist. The only people who might win are betting on a God who judges. The atheist cannot win.
I was a Christian for 35 years. I've been atheist for little over 1 year. It's aggravating living around and seeing most Christians that are so oblivious to reality and evidence that their religion is not based in truth but in tradition and indoctrination. Again, im no longer Christian because I was exposed to a bible I was not taught from the pulpit. I may or may not change anyone's mind now, but I hope I'm at least planting a seed that will grow. I've been through this stage on several life changing topics such as personal finance and politics. I will eventually burn out on religion, but not today.
Just for the sake of discussion, let's say there is no God. Then the atheist has lived his life in closer correspondence to the true reality of the universe Where as the theist has lived his life in some variety of a delusion
First, I apologize for misrepresenting and misunderstanding your early post. It was unintentional. Do I really care if they are 'oblivious to a reality' with respect to an afterlife, or a Genesis story, as long as they are basically decent, honest, compassionate in their dealings with me, my grandmother in a nursing home, and my best friend on some hard luck and homeless? I am not so worried about what they base their belief system on, whether it be indoctrination or mythology or not. I worry about what lessons they actually absorb and internalize that impacts what they DO with those lessons. Its more about behavior. We both know some non theist amoral pricks, bullies, and amoral thieves and we both know Christians that take that 'love thy neighbor as thyself line' pretty seriously. They may be able to quote Leviticus, but they are not taking it literally and they listen when the pastor preaches about 'sodomy' , but many are really the exact opposite of the petty bigots, some atheists like to stereotype religious people as being. They are not the 'sheeple' or fools that they are sometimes portrayed as, any more than we are moral relativists who cannot seem to figure out what right and wrong are, because no 'god' is there to point it out for us. They are perfectly capable of reason and logic, and they can employ where and when they feel the need. They should not have to prove it when they are sitting in Bible class lest we decide they are intellectually compromised, infected by those 'God stories' We have not been infected by secular humanist amorality either. Life doesn't work that that. I believe in patience, and working to throw out those stereotypes that become barriers between the theist and non theist.
I struggled with eternal torment and found it not biblical. But, finding out that the bible sanctioned slavery was the straw that broke the camels back. Additionally, I always was taught and believed the bible was inerrant and was "the word of God". After fully reading it, I was shocked at how little it reflected the God I believed in. IMO, if more people know about the absurdities and contradictions they may begin to use rational thought and rethink their world view. More and more people are doing this. I don't expect to change the minds of those who debate me here. I'm hoping to enlighten the many who just read these forums. Fundamentalist help to show the lack of reason when defending their faith. Most Christians likely think that most atheist are biblically illiterate heathens wanting to live in sin without condemnation. Most believe atheist deserve eternal torment. This is complete nonsense. I choose to confront these stereotypes by exposing the immorality and errancy of their religious foundation.
1. You can confront the stereotypes about atheists ( a goal we both share), without risking the potential promotion of stereotypes about Christians or other theists. 2. They should not have to defend their faith with 'reason'. Reason and faith do not belong in the same conversation. By definition, that which is based on faith, is not based on reason. We get that. So why keep trying to force Christians to shove that round peg into a square hole, and so that they will look silly for having faith, and you can look smart for not. That is where the ego trip lives and breeds. It is not pretty sight and it does nothing but turn atheists who so engage, into intellectual bullies and arrogant asshats. 3. Exposing the 'immorality and errancy of another's religious foundation' doesn't do a whole lot to change the stereotypes of us as 'heathens wanting to live in sin'.... You do that by talking about how we find our sense of morality, where our role models come from, and how we teach values to our children. You can sell your products without badmouthing the competition for hour after hour. We have some very nice products lining the shelves. We just need to put them at eye level, advertise them a little, and promote atheism and agnosticism as a diverse line .
I do agree that how we present ourselves does play a roll, but I disagree that scrutinizing religious foundations is not effective. What I will take away from your posts is to be careful not to appear bullish and confrontational. These contradictions are meant to show the Bible as being inerrant and the folklore of men. It is not my intention to insult those who believe. I was them for many years and I understand the hold indoctrination has on them. Thanks for your input.
The reason YOU talk about "things" is to try to justify your bias and put down any who dare to disagree. You have already judged all who dare to disagree with you to be wrong. BTW, you should probably have your memory looked into. A failing memory is a sure sign of senility.
"Take the plank out of your own eye, then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brothers eye." There is a difference between trying to enlighten, and trying to destroy someones faith. The twelve curses are negatively based in fear...like the evangelicals that try to say that if you don't believe the way they do, you will burn in hell. Same with Muslims that say that believe the way we do or we cut off your head. God is positive, not negative.
Do you really need to defend TWOG? But being you are butting in, ....Matthew 24:32-34....reincarnation....also Matthew 17:10-13...more reincarnation
