Can hate win an election?

What you claim to be love in all your bullet points is actually the love of money, i.e. the root of all evil.

 

Hate, according to the left, is not rolling over and giving Johnny Foreigner everything he wants.

 

Money, certainly. Then all these outside groups who support one candidate or the other, one party or the other fill the airwaves with hate the other guy and party. The actually campaigns of those who are running for office have no control over them. An off shoot of our campaign finance reform laws.

Then again, our campaigns have turned from substance, new ideas, possible solutions to problems, visions of the future, anything positive replaced with all negatives. Today, elections boil down to between racists and communists. I think we're a cooked goose.

 

First- Note that I agree the legal definition gives criminals rights even in the commission of crime. It also gives us the right to defend our lives and property during direct threat, including deadly force. Regardless of written laws, which are of course forever changing and are debateable and arbitrary, one's natural sense of what is just is invariably that when you run reckless over the rights of others- you have no rights, and they have every right to run over you. While that's not a statute law, it's been widely understood since the days we lived in caves- natural, common sense law. That does make it inconsistent and variable with the individuals involved; formal laws are an effort to set consistent values- which fail and result in a great deal of injustice and inconsistency. One current inconsistency is the trend of giving active criminals protection from law enforcement, and allowing crime to rapidly expand- thus violating the rights of thousands of honest and law-abiding people. Legality is neither justice or fairness, and fails us more often than not, but we try to live by it. Those who do not fall into a separate class. When formal law fails to protect people- it is only a matter of time before we must accept that it is up to us to protect ourselves. That is happening right now as millions of gun permits are from first-time applicants who have come to realize that neither police or courts are capable of protecting them. At the point a crime of violence occurs against you, the rules will be those instinctive values, not the formality of written law. There are legal rights- and moral rights. The moral rights came first, and they were not invalidated by the feeble attempts of legality to define them after the fact, which usually just muddies things up.

The first time I was authorized to carry a weapon, the person granting that was our state attorney general. He made the limits of my commission and authority clear, and the guidelines for use of a firearm clear, Then he said...
"If someone is breaking into your house and you shoot them coming through a window but they fall back out- go outside and throw them back in. And if you have to shoot someone- You Kill Them."
He was informing me of the legal law- and instructing me to use the natural law while observing the legality of my position.

The police are rarely present when a crime is committed. Lately, even when present- they often chose not to interfere. The lawyers are also absent; they will come along later and second guess everything. At the moment of a violent crime, it's between the criminal and victim. Nature will rule people's decisions, not the arbitrary laws on the books. Once a criminal passes certain lines, for all practical purposes- their legal rights are irrelevant, and their moral rights have been surrendered. I will hope you don't ever find yourself in that position. I've been in an armed robbery. I've been shot at. While I've never found it necessary to shoot or kill anyone, am I ready and willing to do so if necessary? You bet your ass I am.

Are you practicing to be a defense lawyer for the criminals? Sounds like it.

 

So much of this hinges on the ironclad fact that they do not understand how the Electoral College works --- and the monumental challenge which any issue of any type may face in order to emend the Constitution. It was baked into the spine of that document for a reason, to keep the mob from getting swept away in emotion --- on either side. On any side. For any reason. Brilliant people devised this as insurance against ourselves.

 

Immoral is dishonest. Don't elect crooks or sluts.

 

With Democrats that would surely be a pioneering concept, given their DNA-deep self-centeredness.

Ask not what you can do for your country but demand what it must do for you. Right, leftists?

 

We are a land of people who came from worse places in search of something better. Why would we ever want to start up here with that which we escaped?

 

Exactly, my girlfriend is Pakistani and they moved to the UK to integrate and become a Brit. Her father is horrified that we let in so many from that region as he moved here to escape them! He can see the same movements happening as he saw back in Pakistan.

 

So we should kick your girlfriend out to keep the same thing from happening here.

 

I am not sure you even realize how illogical that statement is.

 

To me, Biden is a centrist--too far to the right to make really comfortable. But right now the Trump supporters are so far to the right, they make anyone with any sense of balance at all, seem leftist. I'm a strong supporter of AOC & her advocates, but I recognize our country needs someone more centrist to help bring us together again, so I'm supporting Biden--have already voted for him. Having our country reunited is MORE important than just getting my way politically.

 

You are reading your own preconceptions into my post. Sorry you can't see that.

 

No because there's a difference between legal skill-based immigration and mass, uncontrolled immigration.

 

trump is trying hard, but his demagoguery is a turn off.

 

That was stupid and disgusting. Congrats. You just won today's racist bigot award.

 

I just LOVE the opportunity to explain to a leftist that we are all immigrants. Every one of us, except the (*ahem*) Native Americans who preceded us. Well 'n' good. Somebody got here first. Then old Honky Mofo's showed up. Religious whites at first. Set the tone for open arms and acceptance in a new and promising land.

We escaped a Church of England which told the United Kingdom which God to worship and how. We escaped the feudal land barons of central Europe whose incredibly complex series of treaties led to the First and Second World Wars (the second being a break from the first, in many historians' eyes). We escaped kings and queens and pretentious expensive royalty serving no purpose but to consume good air.

We came because instead of a street cart, instead we could vend from a 7-11, or a custom boutique specializing in goods that were not allowed in one's country of origin (notice I did not say "home land").

America the melting pot? Perhaps. But we all came from somewhere, and we're mostly all glad that we do have it better than there. Wherever there may be.

 

Thank you for your thoughtful post. There are portions I agree with entirely, & others I don't. I bolded your next to last sentence, which is important. Why don't you help this nation throw out Trump? He is clearly inept at his job, & cares nothing about this country or its people--only himself. Always himself. You are an intelligent man. How can you abide his utter imbecility or think it can't hurt the U.S. while he's in power. I don't question your support of his Capitalism. But he's undermining the Constitution while his supporters concentrate on his economics. Please, care about more than just economics. Over 228 thousand Americans have died in this pandemic, & now he's claiming credit for ending that pandemic, while it continues to escalate daily, setting new records for infections & deaths. Trump's mind in an alternate reality. Doesn't this nation deserve (& desparately need) a leader who can respond to the reality you & I face each day? I can't fathom how so many voters can't piece the whole picture together. How can they be so focused on one issue (economy) that they don't see the damage being done to the Constitution & our established governmental institutions. Trump even wants the Justice Dept to arrest Hillary & Joe Biden. Why? Because they dare to oppose him in our "free" elections. Have you ever heard of any American politician asking for such an action? How does that work in a "free" society? How does that work in a Constitutional system? How can ANYONE feel comfortable voting for such a man?

 

I can only say that your perception of Trump has caused you to lose all perspective and balance. If you were to remove all the people in the nation with character issues parallel to Trump in one way or another, our population would drop 30-40%. It's become not only popular, but fashionable to hate Trump- thus leading to excess piled on excess. Much of this is the media being taken over by the liberals, who have no concept of balance or journalistic ethics. They are the equivalent of the people who hunt things for the pleasure of killing- a feeling of power they must get from the ability to impose their view on the public by the manipulation of content. Trump does anything, and it's portrayed as some kind of monstrous deed or evil.

The virus- Do you think it's his fault? The left has tried to pin whatever blame it can on him for everything, and the virus has been a windfall of opportunity for them. I don't agree with the claim he's ending it, because it's hardly ended, and he doesn't have that power- actually nobody does. We just need to do the best we can, and virtually all involved are playing it by ear. Still- every politician is trying to get political mileage out of it, too. Be nice if they cared as much about the people as they do about their own careers. No exceptions.

The left does deals with news harmful to the left by- not mentioning it. That is intentional distortion of the information the public relies on for their perceptions. A very great deal of the perception of Trump has been formed by those same people, who have a moral duty to represent the truth fairly- but don't really give a damn about that duty. It's easy to see how anyone who favors certain news sources has a vividly poor image of Trump; his opponents paint a new picture everyday, and it's always ugly. There's an article now where a New York paper was sending documents with critical evidence about Hunter Biden's deals by overnight express to FOX news in California.... and the package came in opened and empty. Contents stolen- in transit, with a major trusted carrier. That story has not been mentioned by the MSM. Basically all the Hunter scandal is being panned by the MSM- like it didn't happen, or didn't matter. IF that involved Trump, you would be seeing it sold as proof he is really godzilla working for the Russians or something equally ludicrous. There is a distortion in the balance of information, a distortion of the truth is what is represented by these people that should offend everybody- but the left has no problem with that. You are saying Trump is a terrible person- yet the people opposing him are doing crap like this everyday which should offend any honorable person right down to the bone. Trump is temporary, and though you won't get the media on the left to admit it, he's done a great deal for the nation, I think above and beyond any president in decades. He will be gone in 4 years- but the disease attacking the spirit of this nation, which is being planted, nurtured and spread by the left- will be a curse on the nation for decades, possibly permanently and fatally. They say Trump lies. I say they all lie, and all politicians have always lied- but they used to have some limits. Not today.

I don't think this election is about voting for Trump or Biden. I see it at voting for America- or against America, at least America as we know it now.
IF you can keep your priorities in order, you know that the future of the nation is vastly more important than your displeasure of watching Trump for for more years.
There are off-setting benefits as well, such as seeing your 401 account grow, your company get stronger, the economy you live in get stronger.
The GDP just set a new record. Despite the virus, and the massive financial impact of the lockdown- the economy is standing up. That's not pie in the sky, that's strength in your pocket.
Destroy that at your peril, my friend.

 

Can hate win an election?

Sure, it won in 2016.

 

Anyone who was born on American soil is not an immigrant.

 

Thank you again for your thought-filled post. I know you are an intelligent man, which is something I value, but I am mystified how your conclusions & mine can be so far apart. It's interesting, but a bit scary, since we both claim the same citizenship & membership in the same culture. Yet, it's amazing how vastly different your personal reality is from mine--your fears, concerns, values, desires & expectations. In a way, to me, it's a measure of the power of diversity, but it can also be a measure of the limits we all set on our willingness to accept that diversity. I wanted to respond to several of your points.
1. If I had lost all perspective & balance I wouldn't be saying what I say on this forum. Before Trump, I would have seriously doubted there were 30-40% of our populace willing--even eager--to find an authoritarian leader & empower him here in the U.S.. It is seriously frightening to admit you are right on this--to the detriment of this nation & its historic ideals.
2. One powerful realization I've picked up on this forum is how desperately misinformed so many members of this forum are about liberals & what they stand for or want to do with America. I've seen some really horrendous misconceptions stated on this forum by conservatives & Trumpsters. It saddens me because as a pretty strong left winged liberal myself, I know how far off base some of these posts are. But my attempts to clarify are largely ignored or left unheeded. With most conservative posts, I can see regions of common ground, but Trumpsters are so extreme, it's like they live in an alternate universe, where the facts I use to define my reality aren't even in their consciousness. That's scary.
In college, I took two communications classes. They were challenging in many ways. I was impressed by the amount of time & attention the professors spent dwelling on truth, accuracy, honesty, integrity, etc., regarding everything anyone wrote, & they stressed how important it was to never let that commitment we had to those values lapse. I know there are individual reporters who have allowed those values to lapse, but generally speaking, I don't see that problem with most reporters today. I think it's been used by some politicians as a scare tactic, or campaign tactic to gain votes, & some Americans have fallen victim to it. I also recognize that our mass media has transitioned from the old Walter Cronkite neutral reporting to opinionated reporting for most newscasters today. Perhaps that's at the root of the growing polarization. But that can be fixed, if we decide it's important enough to do so.
3. No, I don't think Trump is to blame for the Covid virus, but I do think he's responsible for failing to confront it on a national level. Dispensing that obligation to the 50 states was a tactical error, & Trump himself is responsible simply because he is President & it was his job. But I'm not blaming him out of hostility or hatred. I'm simply establishing the fact that he failed to do his job effectively, & that failure enabled the virus to do its thing largely unimpeded. I've said it before & it bears repeating. . .Trump took what needed to be one overall command center against the virus & spread it out to 50 different ones, where none was able to coordinate with the 49 others for an effective & efficient response to that virus. I'm not blaming Trump. Blaming someone never solves anything. Concentrated action solves problems. Trump didn't take appropriate action. That's simply a statement of fact--not blame. I am convinced, based on the responses of S Korea & New Zealand, that if we'd had a national, single control center response to Covid back in late Feb or early March, & did everything the CDC advised for about six weeks, we'd have eliminated the virus early on & defeated it. Fifty independent states, each doing their own thing, disconnected from every other state facing the same problem, was bound to fail. Trump was too inept to see that. I don't "hate" Trump for that failure, but I feel deep anguish for the nation having to deal with a powerful, rampant, deadly virus now as a result.
4. You lost me on this one. I don't know what you're referring to.
5. First, regarding lies. Yes, everyone lies occasionally. That's human. Yes, every politician lies at times. GW Bush lied about biological & nuclear weapons in Iraq as a pretense for invasion. But I agree with your statement above that these public lies used to have limits, & now they don't. Have you pieced it together enough to recognize that they started exceeding that limit on a daily basis AFTER Trump became President? I have. Most Democrats have. We Democrats aren't the enemy because we want all of us--you conservatives & us liberals--to return to honesty--telling the truth, to ourselves & each other. That way we can learn to work together again. When we both live in the same reality, see the same facts, even if we see them from various perspectives & viewpoints, we will still have that honesty, truthfulness & the same facts to work with & from. That makes it much easier to coordinate our responses. It also helps us trust each other again. We need that. America needs that.
6. I agree with you on your #6. . .this election is about our vision of America. It's about what America really means to us as individuals--what we want it to stand for in the eyes of the world & ourselves. It's the most important, & relevant election of my life. It's a major nexus point for the country.
I'm not against Trump because he's conservative. I'm not against Trump because he's Republican. I'm against trump because he's inept in his job, & a growing danger to our Constitution & our long established governmental institutions, which he's weakened profoundly during his first term, & would conceivably destroy totally if given a second. I'm against Trump because he's mentally an authoritarian who has no personal commitment to safeguard the government or the nation or the people he was elected to serve. The one national crisis he faced in his first term, he tossed over to the 50 state governors instead of dealing with himself. That is proof enough to substantiate my concerns.
I noticed both your positive, ending statements were focused on economics. I agree that economics are important, but they are only one of many important considerations facing any President. To selectively ignore all those others is not only short sighted, but dangerous. Trump also focuses exclusively on the economy, because he thinks he knows a lot about that topic, but also because he believes that issue is his strongest argument for reelection. But Trump believes the stock market is the best measure of economic strength. Economists know better. I'm not an economist, but even I know better. Trump inherited a strong economy from Obama & Biden, but has allowed it to wither on the vine, especially due to Covid. If Trump had done what I say in #3 above, he would still have a strong economy. But he didn't. And now, with the virus peaking at its highest infection rate ever, & the deaths still building to new record levels daily, Trump is claiming praise for "ending the Covid pandemic." I see that as just another verification of ineptitude & dishonesty, a strong aversion to truth, & an utter failure to show leadership. Trump is exhausting.

 

Lol...what's your point? That they're not fit to be potus either? We agree then.
Our country needs better than a defective cripple like trump as leader.

 

Dirty Donald .. unscrupulous business tactics - Reality TV Star - Perfect for the Job !