Catalan President Carlos Puigdemont ARRESTED in Germany

I believe the government, the local tax payers whom he is representing, typically pays. Am I wrong?

 

This article gives a list of the charges and what they refer to.

https://theconversation.com/catalon...arges-brought-against-carles-puigdemont-86715

So, if I am understanding this right. They did declare Independence but because that was clearly not violent (apart from the actions of the Spanish police) the charge of rebellion would not hold. Given that Spain knows they cannot get that they have thrown in 'sedition' which is "conduct or speech inciting people to rebel against the authority of a state or monarch." This presumably is referring to them being pro Independence and promoting Independence. Rebelling I imagine would be voting. I am still not sure where the cause of embezzlement fits in but it seems it only fits in if they can manage to get the court to find them guilty of 'sedition'.

Does that sound right to you?

I would think any half decent lawyer would be able to get them all off this extremely easily but in a country where the Catalonian Politicians have already been put in jail, where they are now ruled from Spain direct as Spain would not accept the result of the next election and where the Spanish Government has been saying again and again and apparently it is being repeated over and over again through the Spanish media that they are guilty there is some question as to how Independent that judiciary is and whether a verdict which the Spanish Government did not like might result in more jailings or worse for any lawyer or judge who so acted.

 

So for you the people of Catalonia do not deserve democratic rights. They are prisoners of Spain, possibly occupied by Spain. That seems how it is at the moment.

 

TOTALLY true, but at the same time most of the military might of Germany was in their militaristic heartland of Prussia. If you want an even better example of Germany military supremacy, take a look at the Franco-Prussian war of 1870 that really was the central figure of what created the "Germany" we know of today.

In fact, the world was so scared of Prussian military dominance that they basically stole it from German hands and disassembled all of their amazing military infrastructure. We know it today as Poland and Kaliningrad Oblast.

That area WILL be a flash point once again one day, right now we are still at the tail end of Pax Americana but as that starts to dissolve and borders come into question without a "International Police Force", I will be curious to see who wants what land back.

 

No, you are mistaken, Catalonians, like all Spaniards deserve democratic rights and they have such rights. First you should note it is not at all clear most Catalonians even want to secede, the illegal referendum didn't show this and neither did the regional election in December. Moreover, it should be up to all of Spain whether some part of it gets to secede.

Catalonia is not "occupied" by Spain nor are the Catalonians "prisoners" of Spain. Spain has intervened in Catalonia to uphold their constitution which specifically provides for exactly what Madrid has done in order to guarantee the territorial integrity of the nation. In Spain we have probably the most devolved system of government in the world (I've read that in some aspects only Switzerland does better). Spain's 17 autonomous governments exercise a wide range of governmental functions independently from Madrid. In Catalonia the regional government administers public education and universities, applies their own laws, deploys it's own police force, is responsible for public broadcasting, handles cultural affairs, has it's own public health system, regulates pharmacological licensing (a big business in this region), they run their own transportation systems (roads, railways, harbors and airports), nobody can claim Catalonia lacks self-government, what they cannot do is print their own currency, engage in international relations or field a military force.

Territorial integrity is a fundamental concept for every nation, not just Spain. No nation has ever yielded parts of it's territory, in the US the attempted secession of the Confederate States resulted in a bloody civil war. There is no peaceful way to dismember a nation.

 

According to the russian consortium, they would beg to differ with you and point out how they dismembered Crimea "peacefully" from Ukraine via referendum, but the Donbass is a work in progress!?!

 

He used tax money from the spanish budget. This means evryone paid. The anfadusian single mother as well as the madrid pizza delivery guy and and all other spanish citizens, including the 60% of the people in catalunia who want stay spanish.

He used tax money to fund an illegal referendum. Thats theft, plain and simple. He is free to pay it back. Will he?

 

How do you judge the 60% of people in catalunyia who dont want independence? Will you kick them out? Kill them? Because they viciously fight to stay spanish.

 

Wrong. The heartland of prussia was what is today Mecklenburg Vorpommern and Brandenburg. East Prussia was merely a thin populated province.

My great grandmother comes from there and i assure you, we will take it back. The poles they send there know they wont have a future there.

 

Voters in a referendum to secede and join the neighboring country during military occupation by that neighboring country don't really have a choice.

 

How will you get East Prussia back?

 

The right to self-determination is contingent on a lack of self-government.

 

I dont know how their system works but when we have a law pass that is deemed illegal the court system reverses the law and that is that. No one gets arrested for the law being illegal or using state money toward the legal voting process of the illegal law.

 

We have a similar system in Spain, the Constitutional Court determined the Catalonian referendum was illegal, it forbade it, outlawed it's celebration and authorized the deployment of law enforcement to prevent it.

 

From what I have read that is only half true, cities like Konisgberg were huge military assets that were inherently large parts of the Reform. The allies targeted certain regions of the area to breadown specifically for holding such militaristic ideals.

Would you want a war between Germany vs Poland + Russia to take the land back?

 

Yet Spain is wanting to put an elected Government in jail for 30 years because it acted according to the intentions it gave to that electorate and offered them a free and democratic vote. That in a supposed democracy, the State is putting those with an alternative Political vision in Prison for 30 years belies that that State is democratic. That Democratic countries would support this beggars belief.

Having sent in a Militarised police from outside Catalonia to drag people out of polling stations by the hair and destroy ballot boxes, Spain then arrested key members of the elected Parliament forcing those who did not want to end up in jail into exile. Having done all this they announced new elections for the region but on discovering the people of Catalonia still voted in a majority, small one but a majority in favour of Independence, the Spanish Government did not allow them to fulfil their duty but continued direct rule from Spain. Does not sound like any democratic rights I have ever heard of.

This is clearly not the case. In order to illustrate this the Catalonians would have been required to have been able to have a proper Referendum. This was refused by Spain who ended up as I said above brutalising peaceful people wanting to use their democratic right to vote.

that itself is questionable.

The referendum in was it October showed that 90% of the papers by people who managed to get into polling stations and which had not been destroyed by the Militarised Spanish police favoured Independence.

That resulted in a slight overall majority for the Independence Parties. The argument is not about whether Catalonia is independent at the moment as clearly it is not. It is about wanting to destroy the political aspirations of the Catalonian people, refusing to honour their democratic votes and imprisoning people because of their political views.

Earlier you said

You made clear that you were against the people of Catalonia having their democratic rights if it went against what you wanted. To hold people against their will and not allow them the right of self determination is pretty much keeping them prisoner/occupying them. While Spain has not allowed Catalonia to have a legit Referendum in 2012/3 75% of the people of Catalonia made it clear that they wanted the right for such a Referendum.

google translate

https://www.elperiodico.com/es/politica/20130608/catalanes-piden-rajoy-autorice-consulta-2412865

and you still are arguing you are allowing the people of Catalonia their democratic Rights?

I have heard you argue this before. When you are speaking of 'their constitution' are you meaning the Spanish one?

Spain reneged on the agreements it made in 2006 when it for a short time did not have a PP party in power. The PP returning to power and going back on the rights and agreement which had been worked on by the Catalonian Government and accepted by the Catalonian people in a Referendum and which then were accepted and put into law by the then Spanish Government is what gave rise to the movement towards Independence. Had the PP honoured agreements which were put into law this would not have happened. The Catalonians say these are rights they fought for for forty years since Franco's death. That these conditions voted for in a free and fair Referendum by the people of Catalonia and then put into power should be dissolved against the agreement of the Catalonia people is the reason why the people of Catalonia moved towards a demand for Independence. What becomes obvious again and again is that the democratic voice of the Catalonian people is being stamped on.

Very emotional words. Democratic States do not attack countries or regions which have a distinct history and only joined the main state by treaties such as Catalonia or French Canada or Scotland by treaties. You however have put the difference between genuine democratic States and Spain. You say this matter must be dealt with by force rather than the ballot box and indeed this corresponds to the repression we have already seen in Catalonia. By its brutality when the Catalonians tried to have a free vote on Independence, Spain hoped to terrify its inhabitants into submission. They remained peaceful. They held up their hands when being met by the brutal Spanish Militarised police but that did not stop them being attacked. They refused to be brutalised into submission. They said 'We are not afraid'. They refused to allow themselves to be intimidated. Given that Spain was unable to brutalise the people of Catalonia into submission Spain then went after her politicians intending on keeping any in Catalonia who wish Independence in jail forever. The arrest of Politicians in Catalonia and the attempted misuse of the European Arrest Warrant against Pugdemont Carla Posanti and the others is purely on political grounds, criminalising free political speech and imprisoning political opponents. No genuinely democratic State could support this.

 

Clara Ponsati turned herself in and was arrested about an hour ago. Here is the statement her lawyer made
https://twitter.com/BBCScotlandNews/status/978951163805687808

The hearing is happening around now.

 

Yes i would. Poland is weak as ****.

 

How does Germany expect konigsberg back), sobo, I like the idea.....but there's this Russia thing......

 

She has now been released on bail.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-43567678

 

After only one day Clara Ponsati has made over £200,000 for her Legal Fees on her Crowd Justice Page.

https://www.crowdjustice.com/case/defendclara/

 

Can you stop to post this ponti stuff in this topic? Thanks.

On a sidenote, puuidgemon lawyer is an idiot. He now demands from the german government to release him. Guess he realized law is against him.

 

The Ponsati case has parallels with Puigdemont's and the whole Catalan secessionist fracas; it is simply not true a minority, well-endowed with more than adequate representation in a national government can claim independence therefrom merely on the basis of ethno-cultural differences. The international community has not reached that stage yet. Maybe the Catalonians are at the vanguard of some future development, but this has not been recognized yet. Developments in the relations among nations proceed at what can best be described as a "glacial pace", I don't expect to see "ethnic sovereignty" recognized any time soon, in fact it seems the internet and modern communications are moving the world in the opposite direction.

 

After only one day Clara Ponsati

The thread although started simply on Puigdemont clearly includes Clara Ponsati as the demand for the European Arrest Warrant to be misused in arresting her was included in the same for Puigdemont. Whoever it was started on it would have needed to include the other and other related content as it arises.

Why on earth would Puigdemont's lawyer not demand he be released. He is being held for his political position. No Democratic State would do that. Ponsati's bail was not opposed. Now I know from what you write again and again that you do not understand what democracy is, for instance believing that Merkel can tell the German Courts what their ruling must be not realising that that would be a clear indication that Germany is run on a dictatorship not as a democracy. I was though noting that the ex leader of the AdF, the one who left when you moved more to fascism and started a new party, was himself saying that Puigdemont should be released. Possibly he still believes in democratic rights. Perhaps there is hope for Germany yet.

Oh and with respect to the appeal for Clara they probably have near enough money to provide a good enough defence against her extradition order to prevent her being sent back to Spain to suffer political persecution though how much they need is still to be seen. Any extra will be used to help with the legal expenses of the others. That includes Puigdemont.

 

Sobo, looks like the situation in Germany is not nearly as clear cut on sending Puigdemonet back to Spain as you were suggesting.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...dition-bid-may-spark-long-german-court-battle

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