China warns interlopers in South China Sea

...plus c'est la meme chose.

 

China has already recognized the Palestinian State. It's a sort of ...er......moral thang, Albert....as well as logical and just.

 

the Chinese have agreed to and there automatically the good guys to you because there in opposition to the united states

 

Chinese sovereign territory? do you mean that South China Sea belongs to hans?

 

So what? Recognition by the Han means nothing. They have a world view you don't understand. Do you really think the Han respect Arabs? Morality? Hahahaha. The Han see you folks as pygmies with oil. But oil won't last.

 

So what? Recognition by the Han means nothing. They have a world view you don't understand. Do you really think the Han respect Arabs? Morality? Hahahaha. The Han see you folks as pygmies with oil. But oil won't last.

 

So why have they not invaded Taiwan yet? What is stopping them if not us?

I understand they see it that way. They are wrong. It is not like they will be the first ones to underestimate us. I am old enough to remember when everyone thought the Japanese would overcome us economically. Or the Soviets would overcome us militarily. How did THOSE scenarios work out?

Idealism has its advantages. We are unpredictable.

And foreign contempt for us is completely new, right? LOL!

So long as we have something they want, they will trade with us. So long as we have a superior military and they believe we will to use it, they will fear our retaliation. But it is all irrelevant since your inlaws have no political power over there anyway. The CCP does not really care about their opinion of America, and does not have to answer to them. The CCP are pragmatists, and therefore predictable.

Maybe, but I doubt it. I do not think the CCP is that stupid. They will not make the mistake that Saddam made (and Iran will likely make). They will not want to risk what they have already gained and stand to gain in the future. Not unless threatened by something extreme like bombing or an invasion.

 

The Philippines just like Taiwan (ROC) are dispensable, betting chips for the super powers to use winner takes all.

 

A ripe apple falls into the hands of those who have patience. The Chinese way is to win without fighting. The PLA's major problem is corruption, not America.

That was a different iteration of the American people who defeated those foreigners. The demographics in America have changed. The last vestiges of the well educated and vigorous demographic of the past is now moving into retirement. They are being succeeded by poorly educated and balkanized people without national cohesion. I know...it's heartbreaking. But we can't lie to ourselves that the people coming up behind us are truly our successors. They are untermenschen.

America is completely predictable. It is in the process of committing slow motion suicide.

No. In the past we saw resentment, but not contempt. Contempt is something new.

Start a new thread if you want to discuss this subject. It is way too broad to discuss in a single post.

The CCP is made up of people, nothing more. The pattern of history is for a cohort of great men and women to become hard and clever by overcoming adversity. Then, having overcome adversity the immediate successors retain enough of the inherited wisdom and strength to maintain the vision. Then, the more remote successors forget the lessons of the past because adversity is outside of their experience. That is when they overreach.

 

I am fairly certain we would back the PI either way. Do you know where the largest american population lives outside of the United States, yep, the Philippines. The PI is also one of the most raw material rich countries in Asia. Much of which has not been explored or mined.

 

The Chinese call the Filipinos the Mexicans of Asia.

 

but they are, you should lorn Spanish as soon as possible

 

With too much patience the apple starts to rot and becomes unpalatable. Too much "patience" can be just as bad as not enough.

Totally agree there. But I think that is a direct result of a non-democratic system. You get entrenched power bases not all that different from a monarchy. Its a "good old boy" network in the extreme.

We were told that last generation, and yet we prevailed. The Japanese, though successful, failed to eclipse us. The Soviets, though advanced, collapsed under pressure from us anyway.

I know you believe that the current generation of Americans is inferior to that generation, but I am sure their parents thought the exact same thing.

(And frankly, that argument could be made for the Chinese as well...do you think the current generation is really every bit as hard working and focused as the previous generations? It goes both ways)

Semantics. Europeans have had contempt for us for a long time. Foreign contempt for us is normal. It is popular to hate America unless you are actually in America.

I think that might have been more true in the past than it is now. Information about the past is far more easy to obtain now, so those lessons will be less likely to be forgotten. "The pattern of history" has been dramatically altered in the information age.

 

I know you don't have the patience. Neither do I. Neither do most Chinese who are looking forward to unification.

For how long can we live? Even if you could live a hundred and seventy-five years like Abraham, China and Taiwan may not be unified at all. However, China can wait. It has all the patience in the world to wait for centuries and centuries!

The land mass of the Chinese mainland is so huge when compared to Taiwan that China has every confidence that Taiwan "can never escape from its palm".

The Chinese idiom "can never escape from one's palm" originated from an episode of one of the Four Great Classical Novels of Chinese literature -- "Journey to the West".

In the story, Buddha made a bet with the Monkey King that he (the monkey) could not escape from his (Buddha's) palm. The Monkey King, knowing that he could cover 108,000 li (One li is about 500 metres) in one leap, smugly agreed. He took a great leap and then flew to the end of the world in seconds. Nothing was visible except for five pillars, and the Monkey King surmised that he had reached the end of Heaven. To prove his trail, he marked the pillars with a phrase declaring himself "the Great Sage of Heaven" (and in other versions, urinated on the pillar he signed on). Afterward, he leaped back and landed on Buddha's palm. There, he was surprised to find that the five "pillars" he had found were actually the five fingers of Buddha. When the Monkey King tried to escape, Buddha turned his hand into a mountain. Before the Monkey King could shrug it off, Buddha sealed him there using a paper talisman on which was written the mantra Om Mani Padme Hum in gold letters, wherein the Monkey King remained imprisoned for five centuries.

Sun Wukong
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Wukong

Monkey meets Buddha
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwuQRUuZ76w

(ENG SUBS) Journey To The West 2010 - Bet With Buddha
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPqm6ePcOMM&feature=related

Genesis 25:7
http://bible.cc/genesis/25-7.htm

 

I would be ok with that, if the only alternative is a CCP dominated Taiwan.

China really has no choice. But will the China of 30 years from now be the same China as today? Things change....even in China.

That is what the CCP stands to lose. It happned with the Soviets. It could happen to them too.

Taiwan has already done that! lol

Taiwan already has it's own military. Taiwan already elects it's own leaders and makes it's own laws. Taiwan already has it's own economy and pays no taxes to China. Taiwan is already not subject to any Chinese laws.

Exactly how does China have them in the palm of it's hand?

LOL! That analogy is retarded. China obviously does not have the level of control implied in that story. You might just as well say that China is in America's palm as well. After all, they want to invade Taiwan, yet are prevented from doing so because of us, right?

 

South-East Asia would be worth a lot more to the Chinese than Taiwan. Between oil and other resources, they would also have the geographic basis to influence India, Indonesia, the Philipines and Taiwan and make South Korea and Japan rather nervous. Another possible invasion would be to divide Kazakhstan up between them and Russia (more oil, and a show of alliance more telling than a treaty and a few joint manouevres).

It makes more sense for China to play a waiting game with Taiwan. In the end, Taiwan cannot resist China without outside assistance (although they can make the cost of invasion quite high); in the absence of American interest, Taiwan will be strongly motivated to go to the bargaining table.

 

It could happen to America too. A virtually bankrupt US will be more bankrupt and less militarily powerful.

As my nephew has proclaimed: "It (the US) is in the process of committing slow motion suicide."

A Greek of your mentality in the ancient times would also argue that the Greek Empire would never decline.

Similarly, a Roman of your mentality would proclaim the Roman Empire would be invincible.

The British imperialists of your mentality would boast that their American colonies would never become independent from the British Empire. They would also boast that the sun would never set for the British Empire.

According to the Greek philosopher, Heraclitus of Ephesus (c.535 BC - 475 BC): "Nothing is permanent except change."

Heraclitus
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Heraclitus

China's Debt-for-Nature Opportunity for Virtually Bankrupt U.S.
http://www.culturechange.org/cms/content/view/

Following are excerpts from the article headlined "Palestine is Not a Country" at http://geography.about.com/od/politicalgeography/a/palestinenot.htm

(Begin excerpts)
There are eight criteria accepted by the international community used to determine whether an entity is an independent country or not.

A country need only fail on one of the eight criteria to not meet the definition of independent country status.....

No. "Palestine" itself does not have external recognition nor does it have its own embassies in other independent countries. It is not possible for Palestine to be an independent member of the United Nations at this time.

Thus, Palestine (nor the Gaza Strip nor the West Bank) is not yet an independent country. The two parts of "Palestine" are entities that, in the eyes of the international community, have yet to develop or, more importantly, have international recognition to be considered a full independent country. (End excerpts)

The same can be applied to Taiwan because it is not a member of the United Nations.

Missing Countries
Countries That No Longer Exist
http://geography.about.com/od/politicalgeography/a/missingcountry.htm

Geographically, there is more truth in "the palm of its hand" idiom. Taiwan is about 220 km (137 miles) from the Chinese mainland but 12800 kilometres (7950 miles) from the US.

Just think about this. If North America was as small as Taiwan, and Britain as big as China, and if North America was 137 miles instead of 3000 miles away from Britain, do you think the thirteen British colonies in North America could easily break away from the Mother Country. God forbid!

Don't worry. There is a way for the US to steal Taiwan from China. While China is waiting centuries for unification, your people can try to "move" Taiwan to the US by digging up pails of Taiwanese soil every day and use it to create a new state of Taiwan off the American coast. If your people are patient and determined enough, they will definitely manage to move the whole of Taiwan across the Pacific to America after a few centuries.

Geography of Taiwan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography_of_Taiwan

Taiwan is 12800 kilometres (7950 miles) from the United States.
http://www.trueknowledge.com/q/how_far_is_taiwan_from_usa

The American War for Independence
http://edsitement.neh.gov/curriculum-unit/american-war-independence

American Revolutionary War
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Revolutionary_War

Two hundred years ago, there was no need to "give diplomacy a chance". Just send a gunboat over, and everything would be done. The era of gunboat diplomacy for the West, however, has gone forever. Now, however irritating North Korea has become, the US could do nothing. You can't even invade an impoverished country like North Korea or a backward country like Iran, so how can you hold China in your palm, right?

Here I take the opportunity to make an "intelligent guess" or a "prediction":

The North Korean nuclear missile program is unstoppable. No countries could stop North Korea from becoming a nuclear power like India in the future. Well, that's the power left of America's palm.

 

How likely is that to happen?

You do know that America has been far poorer than this before, right? Yet we not only recovered fully from it, we rose to become the world's strongest superpower.

The Greeks are already gone. We are still here. Their failure is a matter of record. Our "failure" is still your speculation. And as I have pointed out already, there was similar speculation about Japan and the Soviets a few decades ago. Yet we are still here.

LOL! Criteria as determined by who exactly? And what makes their criteria objective?

Even we don't care about what the UN thinks, and we are on the Security Council. heh heh

Using that logic, why does China complain when we do maneuvers with Taiwan? After all, our military is ineffective so far from home, right? Why has China not simply taken Taiwan back by now?

Perhaps China disagrees with you, and believes that distance is not a significant barrier for our military.

Geographical size is irrelevant where military power is concerned.

If we had wanted Taiwan we would already have it. Obviously conquest is not our goal.

Has anyone notified Saddam?

If China cannot assert it's authority over Taiwan despite a larger military, massive landmass, and close proximity, how can you say they hold Taiwan in the palm of their hand?

If anything, that appears to be clear evidence that they do not.

LOL -You forgot to put "power" in quotes.

 

The longer you spend in China, the more you realize you do not understand China.

China is locked in a feudal mindset. There is very little concept of right and wrong. There is a concept of 'power" which comes from the Chinese philosophy of legalism. This is the reason why China accepts the dominance of a little country like the USA, at the same time as it preserves its own inner sense of cultural superiority. Foreigners are still barbarians, just as they always were. They are to be tolerated only in so far that they can give advantage to China. Albert is right. As soon as China regards itself as more powerful what is right will be determined by what China is capable of. They see no moral problem here.

It is confusing though to a Western mindset. A Confucian thinker would merely analyze Western concepts of morality as a mask of hypocrisy, given that the West did - through sophisticated sophistry - justify the very same "might is right" aproach taken by white men from the first shots fired by the Portuguese on the Pearl River Delta, right up to the present foreign policy of the USA. There is something in this, which is why we should not underestimate the effectiveness of soft power on winning the minds of young Chinese to the idea that democracy is a liberating and progressive force and not a loathsome hypocrisy. This is why the presence of Guantanamo Bay, and the betrayal of liberal principles by Western governments severely weakens the appeal of democratic government to influential Chinese thinkers.

And yet such clearthinking (Western hypocrisy is a clear logical observation) becomes terribly hadicapped by a tremendous victim politics when referring to British imperialism. You would think that those steeped in legalism would recognize the reality of a strong Empire bringing the railway to China and crushing a weak monarchy when it got in its way. But here nationalism triumphs and Britain, or all foreigners which is the same thing, is the source of all China's problems in the popular narrative. In fact, Chinese civil wars in the last two hundred years killed millions of Chinese people. Communists and the Guomindang acted like brutal savages in the scale of the murders and atrocities they executed. The crimes of British imperialism were to bring progress to China as they humiliated a feudal monarchy. Any Marxist analysis would see China's failure since the sixteenth century as a failure to develop mercantilism and capitalism, not as an unjust terror descending from heaven, but a weak monarchy, incapable of generating modern political institutions that would lead people from the fields into the cities, which Europe's Industrial Revolutions had done.

But this eludes Chinese "communists" who wallow in an infantile nationalism about unequal treaties and a hundred years of humiliation. This infantilism comes from a refusal to see that the current state continues to be based on feudal ideology (something which Westerners have long forgotten about and really do not understand). The continuing ascendancy of vulgarized versions of Confucianism, preaching harmony and obedience to the rulers, underpins this. It is nothing more really than a harnessing of reactionary backwardness to shore up the power of the State and its billionnaire bureaucrats. This is where Albert is wrong. It is in these feudal caverns that untermenschen are to be found (although that is a deeply distasteful phrase to describe even the worse despots of Zhongnanhai). This is what we don't understand because we lost this thinking half a millenium ago. The rule of law in China is non existent - it is a tool in the hands of an elite who will use it for their own personal gain. This is though deeply cultural in a country whose very name means "the centre of the world". International law is similarly repudiated (feudalists in China are not so different from feudal Tories in America). Millions of people accept this as entirely natural, much as most Anglo Saxons acquiesced to the power of their Norman overlords. There are liberal voices in China and the CPP, who know what Sun Yat Sen and Zhao Ziyang knew, that the values of the Enlightenment are universal values and that Chinese people have universal rights. The argument that these ideas are foreign and therefore imperialist is as effective as it is vacuous. Eventually the tide of progress will sweep away all this superstition and nonsense. But whilst it protects the wealthiest political class in the world and guarantees their power, it will cause some problems for some time to come for China and those with whom it reacts.

 

Decay has already set in. Put on your mask!

BookTV: Morris Berman, "Why America Failed: The Roots of Imperial Decline"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zP6tjkTXZE

The Almighty God could never let anyone stay on top for long lest He might be kicked down from Heaven.

Your "failure" is no speculation. You will not be here (on top) all the time. America is following the trajectory of all empires. The descent is going to be horrifying! Get your parachute ready!

Chris Hedges "Brace Yourself! The American Empire Is Over & The Descent Is Going To Be Horrifying!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zotYU21qcU&feature=g-trend&context=G288c0e8YTAAAAAAALAA

The "Buddha" beside the small island of Taiwan is one of the P5 in the United Nations in determining the criteria. Don't complain about the objective of the criteria which is double-edged to US interests. Without such criteria, other countries such as China could have long recognised the independence of the so-called "Domestic Dependent Nations" in America.

What is a country, and how is a country defined?
http://www.geography-site.co.uk/pages/countries/country_definition.html

How Many Countries are there in the World?
http://www.wisegeek.com/how-many-countries-are-there-in-the-world.htm

Mr Heh Heh, the US is not the sole Emperor on the Security Council.

Won't the US complain if China establishes close military ties with the so-called "Domestic Dependent Nations" in America?

Your motive in instigating a Chinese invasion of Taiwan is questionable and puzzling indeed. Fortunately for the Taiwanese, you are not the Chinese leader, otherwise you could have rained thousands of missiles on the miserable Taiwanese.

I wonder how you had courted your wife. Did you do it by force or try to win over her heart?

Really distance is no significant barrier for your military? Don't bluff. Let's see an exciting end, not an anti-climax, to the long-standing US-North Korean comedy.

CHINESE COULD SINK US CARRIERS AT WILL - NO NEWS AT TEN
http://a-place-to-stand.blogspot.com/2010/04/chinese-could-sink-us-carriers-at-will.html

Yes, that's how America's military power failed miserably in Somalia.

"Following the battle, the bodies of American soldiers were dragged through the streets and maimed. Through negotiation and threats to the Habr Gidr clan leaders by ambassador Robert B. Oakley, all bodies were eventually recovered. The bodies were returned in horrible condition, one with a severed head. Michael Durant was released after 11 days of captivity."

Battle of Mogadishu (1993)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mogadishu_(1993)

Obviously conquest is not your goal? It's just like a sinner preaching with the Bible in one hand and a blood-stained sword in the other.

Following are excerpts from the article headlined "The president's real goal in Iraq" at http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article2319.htm

(Begin excerpts)
...Having conquered Iraq, the United States will create permanent military bases in that country from which to dominate the Middle East, including neighboring Iran.

In an interview Friday, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld brushed aside that suggestion, noting that the United States does not covet other nations' territory. That may be true, but 57 years after World War II ended, we still have major bases in Germany and Japan. We will do the same in Iraq.

And why has the administration dismissed the option of containing and deterring Iraq, as we had the Soviet Union for 45 years? Because even if it worked, containment and deterrence would not allow the expansion of American power. Besides, they are beneath us as an empire. Rome did not stoop to containment; it conquered. And so should we.

Among the architects of this would-be American Empire are a group of brilliant and powerful people who now hold key positions in the Bush administration: They envision the creation and enforcement of what they call a worldwide "Pax Americana," or American peace. But so far, the American people have not appreciated the true extent of that ambition.

Part of it's laid out in the National Security Strategy, a document in which each administration outlines its approach to defending the country. The Bush administration plan, released Sept. 20, marks a significant departure from previous approaches, a change that it attributes largely to the attacks of Sept. 11.

To address the terrorism threat, the president's report lays out a newly aggressive military and foreign policy, embracing pre-emptive attack against perceived enemies. It speaks in blunt terms of what it calls "American internationalism," of ignoring international opinion if that suits U.S. interests. "The best defense is a good offense," the document asserts.

It dismisses deterrence as a Cold War relic and instead talks of "convincing or compelling states to accept their sovereign responsibilities."

In essence, it lays out a plan for permanent U.S. military and economic domination of every region on the globe, unfettered by international treaty or concern. And to make that plan a reality, it envisions a stark expansion of our global military presence.

"The United States will require bases and stations within and beyond Western Europe and Northeast Asia," the document warns, "as well as temporary access arrangements for the long-distance deployment of U.S. troops."

The report's repeated references to terrorism are misleading, however, because the approach of the new National Security Strategy was clearly not inspired by the events of Sept. 11. They can be found in much the same language in a report issued in September 2000 by the Project for the New American Century, a group of conservative interventionists outraged by the thought that the United States might be forfeiting its chance at a global empire.... (End excerpts)

Has anyone issued an ultimatum to the North Korean leader?

Did anyone in Taiwan do some terrible thing to you that you keep instigating China to attack Taiwan?

Your argument is akin to that of a sinner after committing a heinous crime: "If God is so almighty, why am I not punished by Him?"

Similarly, if the US military is so powerful, why can't it assert its authority over Cuba and Venezuela?

Back in the 1950s, if anybody had the guts and foresight to predict the rise of China sixty years later, he might be regarded as a looney.

It is just a matter of time that North Korea will perfect their missile technology as it is focusing all its energy and resources on its nuclear missile program.

The inevitable emergence of the "Korean nuclear monster" can be compared to the gradual emergence of a ghost in the Japanese movie, Ringu.

In the terrifying scene, the ghost of Sadako emerged from a well, lurched her way towards the screen and crawled slowly out of the television to kill an unlucky victim stone dead with a deathly glare.

Sadako Yamamura
http://ring.wikia.com/wiki/Sadako_Yamamura

sadako in 3D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoYLuFhpuOs&feature=related

 

American Soldiers treat the Phillipines like scum. There is no Pact.

 

????? ....................... ????????

 

The Mainland doesn't need to actively force Taiwan to unify. Taiwanese businesses are already moving closer to the Mainland on their own.

 

LOL! Really?

China has no stick. They must use the carrot if they ever hope to consume Taiwan.

IMO I doubt it will happen. Economic cooperation in their own interest is far different from actually surrendering control of their lives to the CCP.

 

Yeah, that doesn't sound vague at all. Vague predictions are the best prediction, right? Makes the goalposts much easier to move later on.

If he is really almighty, then he has nothing to worry about, and your statement is therefore wrong.

How did you determine that?

LOL!

The UN declaration of sovereignty means very little. Saddam was considered a sovereign leader. Yet the UN stood by and watched while we "illegally" deposed him and his government and installed a new one...which they then recognized.

UN recognition is a formality at best. It means very little.

Do not project your personal opinion as if it is objective.

Are you sure? We defied the UN in Iraq and they did nothing. We committed supposed "war crimes" and they did nothing. We violate the "sovereignty" of other UN nations (even china!) and they do nothing. We use them as a tool when convenient and then ignore them when it is not. What exactly are they good for?

China doesnt seem to have a huge problem with it when we do these things with Japan or South Korea...what makes Taiwan different?

My motive is doing the exact opposite. My comment is merely mocking China. It is obvious to me why they have not invaded Taiwan.

Haven't been on here very long, have you? Heh heh

Really. A single carrier group would be a match for the entire Chinese Navy. And we have more than one.

China does not want an exciting end. That has been my entire point. They (the CCP) are pragmatists, not idealists. They have a set agenda and specific goals, and will not engage in conflicts that do not bring them closer to those goals. In a war with Taiwan (and therefore us) they stand to lose a lot and gain very little.

That is why war is extremely unlikely. China will not provoke us because doing so would cost them what they have gained so far and stand to gain in the future. The best they could possibly hope for is mutual annihilation, and even that is unlikely. Taiwan is simply never going to be worth that to them.

Blogs as a source. LOL

Your own link explains why this is not an "I Win" button for China. They can't sink carriers at will...screening ships with active sonar can still detect them. Defenses against that are only effective close to the coast. There is no military technology China has that we do not also have, and often better.

It "failed" because we were unwilling to commit the necessary resources to defeat them. You are high if you think Somolia could successfully resist the entire US military.

Did I stutter?

And as evidence of this you post excerpts from a blogger on a fringe website? LOL!

Yes.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...US-of-retaliation-over-scrapped-food-aid.html

Not sure where you got the idea that simply exposing China's impotence over Taiwan is "instigating" anything. Is the CCP really that concerned about what I think of them? heh heh

Because we do not consider them a threat. That supports my point actually. Venezuela's cartoon leader makes retarded implied threats and we don't care.

By contrast, China screams bloody murder every time we do joint maneuvers with Taiwan (or even if Taiwan does maneuvers by themselves). China screams bloody murder if we even IMPLY official recognition of Taiwan. China screams bloody murder when we sell weapons to them. If China did any of that stuff with Venezuela, we would not care.

So you are saying that things that seem unlikely now might not be as unlikely as we think? Aw gee, I wonder if that applies to China's rise or American's fall as well. Ya think? Your crystal ball appears to be a bit biased. Might be time to get a new one.

You really don't find your statement (and your implication) a little hypocritical?

I agree. But by the time that happens, we will have perfected anti-missile technology as well. It is not as if we are standing still waiting for them to catch up.