(cont) Holocaust Memorial.......

I don't believe that for one second.

 

We already fixed slavery and segregation.

We can fix our prisons, but actually eliminating gang culture among blacks is something they have to fix on their own terms.

 

Yes, but not the knock on culture that you cited.

 

The harshest environments on the planet birth the harshest cultures.

Afghanistan has rarely been a very peaceful place in most of history. Granted, part of that is due to outside invaders, but in general, we're talking about cultures that were generally xenophobic to begin with even before the West slapped them around.

So, a lack of contact with the West and the Soviets might have made the Middle East and Southwest Asia less adversarial to us, but then again, a lack of contact also wouldn't have shown them they had oil until decades later (if not centuries).

The simple truth is that the only reason we even give a crap about these countries is because of oil. If they didn't have that, they'd be as poor and as underdeveloped as a lot of Africa.

So, ironically, they have us partially to thank despite the other things we've done to them. This doesn't really differ too much from previous stages of history though. Look at what the Romans did to Europe. They beat the crap out of most of their indigenous comtemporaries, but as a result, modern people from these areas are largely defined by Roman legacies.

Even Islam itself is a success story of conquest.

So, might doesn't make right, but clearly, it often defines humanity.

 

Not so - it was'nt all that long ago when USA was looked upon by most third world/underdevoped countries , as their champion against "imperialism" and morking working class/blue collar workers viewed america as a beacon.

Tell me .. when and what the fek went wrong ?


...

 

Oh no this God is not a good God, this God is the Devil being falsely worshiped as God.

It is not amusing .......................of course, for you, sitting so smug on Mt Olympus, we mere mortals should amuse but we don't find such twisting of our truths funny. It was our people who, through such manipulations and twistings of truth, suffered the Wars and now we must suffer your outrageous lies about our sleves ....Well pet I know the truth about us and the truth I assure you is 'atrocious enough'.

OK so what happened to Yuris' 17,000 Gypsies .educate me then ? How were they done away with, without record, on arrival at Auschwitz ? Was there another means by which 17,000 people whom we have no record of disappearing ?

Go one educate us as to these 17 thousand and how about some proof ?

 

Nothing went wrong. Information merely became more readily available.

We were never the "champion against imperialism". We've been imperial since the Monroe Doctrine.

And honestly, that's what defines most major world powers. It's the natural course of history for most nations as they develop power.

The only difference between the U.K. and America is that you had your heyday. We're approaching the end of ours, and other nations will reach their own with time.

 

Not so - it was'nt all that long ago when USA was looked upon by most third world/underdevoped countries , as their champion against "imperialism" and working class/blue collar workers in europe viewed america as a beacon.

Tell me .. when and what the fek went wrong ?
What caused the tide to turn and caused america's former friends to carry placards shouting "Yankee Go Home " ?



...

 

You tell me then. What are you suggesting happened?

 

That's what you are putting it down to then.

The reason the world hates the US now, is that there is more info available.

So, in short, the more we find out, the more reason there is to find your regime lamentable?

 

Tbf, the onus is really on you to prove it.

 

In a manner of speaking, yes.

Look, if you found out exactly how much money your company makes from your work and how much you actually get paid, you might feel a bit cheated.

It's all about power and expectations. I accept the fact that power corrupts and that certain situations develop that might require bending of the rules.

People say they're against torture, but not many of us have been faced with a situation that might make it tempting or even seemingly the best option.

I would imagine every large government has had to do dirty things to get the job done.

Do I agree with all of it? No. Do I disagree with all of it? Not necessarily.

Situations dictate behavior.

 

Ok, let's say they weren't gassed. Would it really be that much of a big deal if the truth was that they were shot instead? How about dissolved in acid?

The point is that they're clearly either dead or extremely good at hiding.

 

Yes.

I am sure if someone broke into my house, I would be well angry with them, but you cannot base a society on anger, revenge, torture, etc.

It stains you as a human being, or a society, is a proven failure, a recruitment tool for more to hate you.

 

Yes of course it would matter.

 

Nope, it is your people who are saying 17,000 gypsies disappeared on arrival at Auschwitz, without record not I. I am asking you how this was achieved.

No records of their arrival nor of their transit and no records of their demise .....your lot are insisting that they were gassed on arrival at Auschwitz. Please tell me how this was done ................... As far as the records show these people never existed but your lot say they did and then disappeared again into the Gas Chambers and crematoria .........How was this possible ? I mean physically how was this done ?

Zyklon B under test conditions in the formatt we are told it was used would at the very shortest amount of time in 'perfect' conditions take 3 hours to kill.

They say 2,000 people could crowd into the gas chamber, like sardines.

It takes 1 hour to cremate a body, at that time they had 5 cremetoria with 3 muffels each so that was 15 bodies an hour.

As well as having to move the bodies out of the Gas Chambers and pully them up one floor to the crematoria .........

 

I'll put it this way. How torture affects your society is largely dependent on what you do with the person you've tortured.

But since this thread is about the Holocaust, I figure it's relevant to point out that yes, the Nazies took this idea as far as it could go. Obviously, they were far too "morally flexible."

At the same time, however, a certain amount of moral flexibility is necessary. It's a slippery slope, no doubt, but it's also basically inevitable due to human nature.

 

Ok. So does this really change the nature of the Holocaust if the end conclusion is still "the Nazies systematically killed a lot of people"?

 

No it isn't.

You are such a misanthropist.

 

And again, if it didn't happen, that's great. 17,000 less dead people. Excellent.

Let's see... 17,000 removed from.... 1.1 million.

Hmmm... still pretty high number there.

 

So maybe they were not gassed, so maybe they were shot ? Is that any sort of an argument ?

There is no record of them dead or alive .......... there are no recorde of them arriving. There are no records of them in transit. There are no records of them dead .......so tell us these 17.000 invisible Gypsies of yours were they shot or where they gassed ?

 

No, I'm just not into lofty goals.

Incremental improvement is more my kind of thing, so I keep expectations low.

If more politicians spent less time on rhetoric and more on accomplishing things they could actually do, then we'd see better things happening.

Instead, we have too many dreamers and not enough pragmatists.

 

No it isn't.

You are such a misanthropist.

 

Lofty goals?

What like a fair trial and not being dissapeared by Gestapo?

 

I was referring more to your views on evolving society as a whole.