Do we really need a new Islamic Regime in Syria?

Well, there's two separate things at work here.

One is opposing dictators/supporting democracy. That's a basic principle.

The other is "do we like the result their democracy brings." That's a problem for diplomacy.

I find it deeply immoral to support a dictator because *we* prefer him to the guy the people would choose if they were given a choice. We should support democracy in general, and deal with individual governments on an individual basis.

 

I don't think we should be in the business of only supporting democracy when we think we'll like the result.

We should support democracy as a matter of principle, and deal with the democratic result as befits our national interests.

 

I wouldn't support a coup against *any* democratically elected government.

But I have no problem knocking over dictators.

 

More or less I agree. I do think that they should do what they want to do. Do I think the US and every member of NATO is a terrorist? No.

 

I said yes what business do we have telling other countries who can run their countries, we have the same problem here do we not? I think American has plenty of crapola to clean out of her closet before we go ramming our opinions down anyones throat. I think Washington said avoid foriegn intanglements alos remeber Iraq how well did that work out fo us.

 

I suppose we have a fundamental disagreement. "Principles" take a back seat to pragmatic Realpolitik in my world.

 

Mmm...... interesting.....Ron Paul wins various elections but yet........ his rivals always get the credit?

You have no demopcracy...you wouldn 't have a change of electing a president unless AIPAC allows you to do so!!!

If you want to start knocking off dictators....start with your own!
I've heard of red necks but for god's sake...waken up and smell the American genocide! The torture chambers! Even Americans!
Aye yon parasite Obam is no better than the last! I wonder how much he paid to get the peace prize.... perhaps they were out of there heads and they thought it a piece of pie!
And you have the gross incompetance and ignorance to talk of knocking off dictators!
What a bloody id 10 t!

But you have a nice day.... ya hear!

Highlander

 

In this case, I think the principles are a better long-term debt than short-term "Realpolitik."

What has supporting dictators in the Middle East gotten us? A generation of people radicalized by lack of political and economic opportunity. What was the one outlet for their anger? Religion.

We supported the Shah. We got a radicalized Islamic revolution that hates the U.S.

We supported Mubarak. We supported Saddam. We supported all sorts of South- and Central-American dictators.

And what did it get us? Radicalized populations that equate the United States with support for dictators, which makes a mockery of our talk of democracy and freedom.

The "friendly dictator" is a fool's game. Every people should have the right to choose their own leaders without our interference. We are strong enough to deal with the result. And by actually walking the walk, we retain a lot of credibility in world affairs -- credibility that can lead to outcomes we like without the need for massive military force.

 

And why would we ( is the "we" the USA?) need or want to bomb Syria???
Have they invaded our shores?
We haven't done anyone country that we have invaded lately many favors have we?
BTW- I heard govt officials speaking about invading Syria in 2004. Big surprise.
If we do invade Syria it will be gain the back door to Iran.

 

So if a family is being murdered next door, you just sit tight, so long as the killers don't come to your door?

There is no national security reason to invade Syria. There is, however, a compelling *humanitarian* and *moral* reason to intervene when dictators start slaughtering their own people.

Ask Afghani women if they think their country is better off for NATO being there.

Libya was a pretty good job, too.

Iraq was messy, but then we invaded for effed up reasons and with ridiculously wide-eyed expectations.

Really? How does that work?

 

Exactly. I don't think most people - including americans- understand the difference between a republic and a democracy.
BTW- the democracy game isn't working very well here in Egypt. I fear that democracy is going to == theocracy in about 2 weeks.
The US has spent millions of dollars supporting governance and democracy in Egypt and for what??? To encourage well meaning people to overthrow a govt - have nothing- neither platform or leader to step into the political void- which leads to a choice between the military and the very organized but hardly diverse religious zealots of the MB? No one- no middle east expert couldn't have predicted this dangerous dilemma?
Please - the US needs to stay far far away from nation building.

 

And if it does, so what? If it happens, it's because that's what Egyptians want. Unless the theocrats hijack democracy, trash it, and impose a theocractic dictatorship, I see no moral issue.

It might be a practical issue, inasmuch as we would prefer a secular Egypt to an Islamist one. But that's life.

It's fair to point out that healthy democracy requires a mature civic and political system. Which is why we should be cautious and tread lightly when it comes to intervention. You don't intervene to impose democracy; you intervene to stop massacres.

In the main, U.S. support for democracy should be softer: Using economic and diplomatic power to encourage non-democracies to move toward democracy, and supporting young democracies with trade, assistance, treaties, etc.

 

I agree with much of what you say, but that is not how the US has conducted its policies of governance and democracy is it?
USAID really screwed it up big time here in Egypt.
You encourage people to bring about a change of govt and teach them the use of social networking to bring together a little revolution but YOU DON"T ANTICIPATE that that might just bring about a political VOID????? And take no steps to encourage those you mentor to bring about a change in govt to have some sort of leader to replace the one they just overthrew?? Just how naive or stupid or well meaning are we anyway????!!!

 

If Syrians want an Islamist regime, then yes. Syria, along with every other country, has the right, and in many ways should, be critical of the West, especially America. I agree the Assad regime should be destroyed, however.

 

For gods sake.... speak of having ones head up ones arse!
Your country invades other democratic nations and imposes your dictatorship on them, and if you had a free media, you'd understand the million plus that have had to lose there lives to satisfy the genocidal lust of your degenerates!
Libya...aye, Nato Troops watching those mercenaries, they're US paid mercenaries, sodomising Gaddaffi...... and you say a pretty good job, what about the fifty thousand plus murdered by your aircraft bombing them to protect them! Or the secret prisons! You haven't a clue!
As for Iraq.... the SOFA agreement, and your 50,000 mercenaries they cannot get rid of....aye the democratic USA.....you're head must hurt....it's that far up your rectum!
Compelling humanitarian bollocks!
You might even need to get your head examined, could be dangerous!
Highlander

 

What democratic nations have we invaded in recent history?

And while the U.S. often has less-than-noble motives in its foreign actions, "genocidal lust" is not among them.

U.S. paid mercenaries? Really?

Libya only has about 6 million people. 50,000 dead would have been highly noticeable. Please provide evidence of NATO aircraft killing anywhere near that many.

I criticized the Iraq invasion. But again, what hegemon invades a country and then leaves? And why do you call soldiers "mercenaries"? It couldn't be that you're so caught up in your propaganda that you have no objectivity.

 

May I point out, your nation has mercenaries in Iraq (as well as many more) which the Iraqis cannot get rid, they are likened, as with American forces to syphilis, once you have it you cannot get rid.

You may believe in the flag, America the great nightmare..... sorry dream etc...... the rest of the world calls it for what it is, an AIPAC run political system, run by degenerates, a fact you obviously ignore, SHAME perhaps?

Regards
Highlander

 

So a conspiracy-theory site saying Dick Cheney planned 9/11, and another link talking about civilian deaths from drone strikes.

The first link is simply laughable. I'm no fan of Cheney, but good grief.

The second discusses an actual issue. But neither says anything about "genocidal lust" being a motive.

Ah, so you're discussing *real* mercenaries. I thought you were referring to U.S. soldiers as mercenaries.

I have no real issue with knocking over Assad, a dictator who is killing his own people. Does it matter that we have a private security company helping out?

Besides not being a credible link, nothing in there supports the claim that 50,000 Libyans died from NATO airstrikes.

So you made a bunch of BS claims, and when I asked you to support them, you failed -- while linking to multiple junk sites to boot. Congratulations.

 

So you can disclaim a holder of one of the most prestigious position is America.....okay...so you wear blinkers and rose tinted glasses.

You may notice in Libya as with other states stolen through aquisition via genocide the news is curtailed as there is now no democracy in Libya. Your American mercenaries and special forces ensure nothing get out..... but what about the Senator who left Libya hiding from American forces and mercenaries!

Oooh you are a fan of the reprobate Cheney, or you'd be impartial with the factual information surrounding this war monger.

As for American soldiers....more are dying at there own hands than war..... they know what they did....but just cannot live with the fact and shame!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_8AUYvk19c&feature=player_embedded

But a closed book and all that....!

Hypocrisy.......you live in a fascist dictatorship....you wouldn't know democracy if it kicked your arse!
Ooooh and fifty thousand was a conservative estimate!

Regards
Highlander

 

I was a hawk in military matters but as I age I have decided that a passive defense is better than an aggressive offense. So today I am more of a isolationist than a hawk except when there are deaths of our countrymen involved. That said we should not be doing ANYTHING in Syria, let them settle their own problems. For that matter allow the freaking WORLD to solve their own problems! For all but a couple of countries (Israel and South Korea) our allies should expect a nuclear umbrella against unprovoked attack and nothing else, military speaking.

Back in the cold war days it was a little different. The USSR or China may back a country like Syria which complicates and mucks up everything. However today with the USSR gone and China our trading partner the danger level of any one nation or a group of ideological similar nations attempting world or hemisphere domination is nil. The Chinese can not afford for us to become mad at them and default on the massive loans they hold. If they really POed the USA off we might pay them of with funny money as per Nixon did during his administration. He took the last vestiges of gold backing of the dollar and printed enough monopoly money to pay off some huge loans we were on the verge of default!

So the less we do the better.

Reva

 

Good answer. I believe the United States of America has absolutely no right to bomb other countries and assist in regime changes. Especially if we are not at war with the country.

 

Yes as we get older we (most) become wiser! But why your change? America and it AIPAC political system propagates war for acquisition!

No one asked your nation to be an aggressor... it comes with the corrupt political system! I have never seen nor heard of anyone asking to be water boarded, tortured, imprisoned without trial murdered, etc the know methods of your AIPAC systems.
What do you mean... I quote .... "a country like Syria which complicates and mucks up everything" it's American paid mercenaries and the American paid Al Qeda thats murdering Syrians, men women and children,
Aye your American AIPAC bought political reprobate's don't change! And not one American willing to stand up to the degenerates who commit crimes against humanity!
But this is only another step in the direction and a prelude to war against Iran!

Regards
Highlander

 

Right.

Maybe we should ask whether Syria and the Islamic regimes of the world really need the US breathing down their necks?

 

You're making no sense.

 

Republicans love democracy so much that they are willing to kill for it. This is why they started the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, remember? They even wanted to start another war on Iran.

Well, you people got your wish. Now there's Islamic revolution all over Africa, the Middle East, and western China or Indonesia may be next. Are you happy now??