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Discussion in 'Environment & Conservation' started by Dingo, Nov 5, 2013.

  1. Earthling

    Earthling New Member

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    No surprise there, the French have a saying:
    "No oil, no gas, no coal, no choice."
     
  2. PeakProphet

    PeakProphet Active Member

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    Because paying more for gasoline isn't bothering folks enough?

    Goodness knows I can't stand the idea of paying extortion money at the local extortion gasoline stores, but if that is what folks want to do, I guess its a free country.

    Very few. Apparently $3-4/gallon is affordable enough and folks don't mind. I certainly mind, and I think others should as well, but it is a free country and if folks want to dump money into liquid fuels, it is legal.
     
  3. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

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    I still believe we need fusion more than we need a War on Drugs and Individual Liberty.
     
  4. Earthling

    Earthling New Member

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    Pop over here to Europe and see how much expensive fuel hasn't reduced car use.

    Prices are per litre - 3.78541 litres per US gallon
    1 Euro = 1.36 US Dollar

    [TABLE]
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    [TD="bgcolor: #d6d6d6, align: right"]47[/TD]
    [TD="bgcolor: #d6d6d6"]E[/TD]
    [TD="bgcolor: #d6d6d6"]Spain[/TD]
    [TD="bgcolor: #d6d6d6"]€ 1,406[/TD]
    [TD="bgcolor: #d6d6d6"]€ 1,372[/TD]
    [TD="bgcolor: #d6d6d6"]€ 0,799[/TD]
    [TD="bgcolor: #d6d6d6"]Bayonet[/TD]
    [TD="bgcolor: #d6d6d6, align: right"]40[/TD]
    [TD="bgcolor: #d6d6d6, align: center"] [​IMG][/TD]
    [TD="bgcolor: #d6d6d6, align: right"]January 4, 2014[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="align: right"] 48[/TD]
    [TD]E[/TD]
    [TD]Sweden[/TD]
    [TD]€ 1,562 SEK 13,850[/TD]
    [TD]€ 1,510 SEK 13,390[/TD]
    [TD]€ 1,015 SEK 9,000[/TD]
    [TD]Dish[/TD]
    [TD="align: right"]16[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"] [​IMG][/TD]
    [TD="align: right"]January 4, 2014[/TD]
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    [TD="bgcolor: #d6d6d6, align: right"] 49[/TD]
    [TD="bgcolor: #d6d6d6"][/TD]
    [TD="bgcolor: #d6d6d6"]Switzerland[/TD]
    [TD="bgcolor: #d6d6d6"]€ 1,396 CHF 1,718[/TD]
    [TD="bgcolor: #d6d6d6"]€ 1,518 CHF 1,868[/TD]
    [TD="bgcolor: #d6d6d6"]€ 0,813 CHF 1,000[/TD]
    [TD="bgcolor: #d6d6d6"]Acme[/TD]
    [TD="bgcolor: #d6d6d6, align: right"]38[/TD]
    [TD="bgcolor: #d6d6d6, align: center"] [​IMG][/TD]
    [TD="bgcolor: #d6d6d6, align: right"]January 4, 2014[/TD]
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    [TD="align: right"] 50[/TD]
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    [TD]Tunisia[/TD]
    [TD]€ 0,654 TND 1,470[/TD]
    [TD]€ 0,485 TND 1,090[/TD]
    [TD]€[/TD]
    [TD]Unknown[/TD]
    [TD="align: right"]Unknown[/TD]
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    [TD="bgcolor: #d6d6d6, align: right"] 51[/TD]
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    [TD="bgcolor: #d6d6d6"]Turkey[/TD]
    [TD="bgcolor: #d6d6d6"]€ 1,675 TRY 4,960[/TD]
    [TD="bgcolor: #d6d6d6"]€ 1,561 TRY 4,620[/TD]
    [TD="bgcolor: #d6d6d6"]€ 0,861 TRY 2,550[/TD]
    [TD="bgcolor: #d6d6d6"]Dish[/TD]
    [TD="bgcolor: #d6d6d6, align: right"]6853[/TD]
    [TD="bgcolor: #d6d6d6, align: center"] [​IMG][/TD]
    [TD="bgcolor: #d6d6d6, align: right"]January 4, 2014[/TD]
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    [TD="align: right"] 52[/TD]
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    [TD]U.S.A[/TD]
    [TD]€ 0,662 USD 0,900[/TD]
    [TD]€ 0,733 USD 0,996[/TD]
    [TD]€[/TD]
    [TD]Acme[/TD]
    [TD="align: right"]2346[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"] [​IMG][/TD]
    [TD="align: right"]January 4, 2014[/TD]
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    [TD="bgcolor: #d6d6d6, align: right"] 53[/TD]
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    [TD="bgcolor: #d6d6d6"]Ukraine[/TD]
    [TD="bgcolor: #d6d6d6"]€ 0,868 UAH 9,700[/TD]
    [TD="bgcolor: #d6d6d6"]€ 0,810 UAH 9,050[/TD]
    [TD="bgcolor: #d6d6d6"]€ 0,605 UAH 6,760[/TD]
    [TD="bgcolor: #d6d6d6"]Dish[/TD]
    [TD="bgcolor: #d6d6d6, align: right"]23[/TD]
    [TD="bgcolor: #d6d6d6, align: center"] [​IMG][/TD]
    [TD="bgcolor: #d6d6d6, align: right"]January 4, 2014[/TD]
    [/TR]
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    [TD="align: right"] 54[/TD]
    [TD]E[/TD]
    [TD]United Kingdom[/TD]
    [TD]€ 1,572 GBP 1,301[/TD]
    [TD]€ 1,664 GBP 1,377[/TD]
    [TD]€ 0,893 GBP 0,739[/TD]
    [TD]Bayonet[/TD]
    [TD="align: right"]1400[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"] [​IMG][/TD]
    [TD="align: right"]January 4, 2014[/TD]
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    http://www.fuel-prices-europe.info/
     
  5. politicalcenter

    politicalcenter Well-Known Member

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    Ford has come up with a new hybrid that uses solar cells to charge the car off the grid making it possible to make short trips using only solar power. It can also be plugged into the grid in case the sun is unavalible. It tracks the sun and uses a Fresnel lense to concentrate solar energy.

    My old computer does not post links well so for more info you will just have to google.
     
  6. Shiva_TD

    Shiva_TD Progressive Libertarian Past Donor

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    The project is funded internationally but because it depends upon government funding the funding has been very limited overall. Just try to get a Republican in the Congress to support nuclear fusion that will cut deeply into oil profits when that power comes online. Think of all the oil speculators that will not be making hundreds of millions of dollars to donate to their Republican political puppets when that happens.
     
  7. Shiva_TD

    Shiva_TD Progressive Libertarian Past Donor

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    Didn't find the link but will note that Fresnel lenses concentrate solar heat energy but do not change the amount of energy being collected. By analogy they are like compressing a gas where the heat intensity goes up (higher temperature) but the actual amount of energy does not change. The actual consentration of the enegy reduces the total energy collected as some is dissipated as heat into the atmosphere.

    Fresnel lenses do not work for solar cell energy collection which converts sunlight directly into electrical energy.
     
  8. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

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    Is now the best time to buy options on fusion?
     
  9. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    Ignoring your diatribe...people do what is comfortable for them and they do not like change...no matter if you are talking science or philosophy or logic or common sense...each person holds a different perspective. 5% of Americans might use a farmer's market and these same 5% probably buy hybrids and electrics and other green habits...doesn't make them better or special. IMO always the issue is considering the masses, the collective we, the other 95% who are comfortable where they are at the moment. Paying a few dollars extra each week for gasoline might be less daunting than buying a hybrid-electric car? But as gasoline prices increase, this will force more change, but the process is slow...
     
  10. PeakProphet

    PeakProphet Active Member

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    You are absolutely right. And as I have told you before, fortunately there is a social science that describes exactly what it takes for folks to change. If you are really interested in what makes people change, I suggest you study it a bit, it is quite fascinating.

    Quite true. But it does mean that they aren't near as worried about the cost of liquid fuels at the local extortion store. Those afraid of prices are usually those most affected by them, which is the entire point of the aforementioned social science.

    You are describing a higher point on the cost curve, in economic speak. And it is a good thing they are comfortable and don't want to change, it means they live with enough discretionary income to have that choice. And afford even more if necessary, yet more good news for the oil industry, which would be in quite a fix should folks suddenly start using less of their product. Because they, just like those happy (or unhappy) consumers, are affected by their perfectly predictable economic response to the stimuli of price. Like I said, all quite fascinating.

    The process is slow, agreed. Fortunately, with the trillions of barrels of chemical feedstock from which mankind will be assembling liquid fuels from for the rest of this century, we have 3 or 4 generations to work through the issue. You and I won't be around to see the end, but that doesn't mean the end is predictable. I've said it before I believe, and it is true, oil is obsolete...it just doesn't know it yet.
     
  11. politicalcenter

    politicalcenter Well-Known Member

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    Ford doesn't think so...



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    Ford plug-in hybrid solar car uses fresnel lenses to concentrate sunlight for charging

    Derek Markham
    Technology / Solar Technology
    January 3, 2014

    © Ford
    Ford's latest concept car builds on the innovations in its C-MAX Energi plug-in hybrid by adding solar panels to the roof and coupling it with a concentrating solar charging canopy, allowing owners to produce renewable energy to charge its batteries.

    "Ford C-MAX Solar Energi Concept shines a new light on electric transportation and renewable energy. As an innovation leader, we want to further the public dialog about the art of the possible in moving the world toward a cleaner future." - Mike Tinskey, Ford global director of vehicle electrification and infrastructure

    The Ford C-MAX Solar Energi Concept car, said to be the "first-of-its-kind sun-powered vehicle," promises to deliver the benefits of a plugin hybrid, without the reliance on fossil-fuel inputs for its electric drivetrain, which could help reduce the associated GHG emissions for owners of hybrids.

    The SunPower X21 solar panels integrated into the roof of the Solar Energi car aren't that large (1.5 square meters, with a 300 to 350 watt capacity), but an innovative solar concentrating canopy that uses Fresnel lenses to amplify the sunlight (said to be by a factor of 8) is claimed to make this solar-powered hybrid vehicle "feasible for daily use."


    "Researchers developed an off-vehicle solar concentrator that uses a special Fresnel lens to direct sunlight to the solar cells while boosting the impact of the sunlight by a factor of eight. Fresnel is a compact lens originally developed for use in lighthouses. Similar in concept to a magnifying glass, the patent-pending system tracks the sun as it moves from east to west, drawing enough power from the sun through the concentrator each day to equal a four-hour battery charge (8 kilowatts)." - Ford

    In addition to the solar concentrating canopy, Ford also integrated a feature into the C-MAX Solar Energi car that allows it to automatically move itself while under the canopy to maintain the best position as the sun moves through the sky, in order to optimize the amount of sunlight that can be captured.


    © Ford

    According to Ford, the concept car has the same overall range as its conventional C-MAX Energi car, which allows for up to 21 miles on electric only, and 620 miles total. The Solar Energi isn't solely dependent on the sun for its electric drive, as it can still be plugged into the grid at a charging station if necessary.

    With the solar canopy and solar panels working together, the new concept car is said to be able to reduce the annual GHG emissions by about four metric tons, when compared to the original C-MAX Energi model. While this is strictly a concept car, not a production model, Ford estimates that if the technology was integrated into all light-duty vehicles in the US, GHG emissions could be reduced by about 1 billion metric tons.

    C-MAX Solar Energi Concept will be shown to the public at the 2014 International CES in Las Vegas, and is a collaborative project of Ford, SunPower Corp. and Atlanta-based Georgia Institute of Technology.

    Tags: Solar Technology | Technology
     
  12. Shiva_TD

    Shiva_TD Progressive Libertarian Past Donor

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    LOL - I don't know of any for sale but arguably it would be a very good long term investment assuming it develops as a private enterprise. It's sort of like investing in Microsoft in 1975 when it was founded.

    From a government expenditure standpoint it is a very good investment for the People of the Nation.
     
  13. Shiva_TD

    Shiva_TD Progressive Libertarian Past Donor

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    Nothing in this statement contradicts what I states which is based upon the Law of Conservation of Energy.

    http://library.thinkquest.org/2745/data/lawce1.htm

    There is "X" amount of energy in sunlight (about 420 btu's per square foot per hour in space at 93 million miles from the sun). That energy cannot be increased or decreased but every transition it makes results in the expenditure of energy where it is syphoned off usually has heat energy. As sunlight goes through our atmosphere, for example, some of that energy heats the atmosphere. The energy left in one square foot of sunlight on the Earth's surface is fundamentally 420btu/hr/sqft minus the energy lost as the sunlight travels through our atmosphere.

    When sunlight is sent though a lens, either a magifying glass or a Fresnal lens, it concentrates the energy but there is an energy loss as the lens is heated by the energy passing through it. The lens concentrates the enegy but does not increase the amount of energy and there is a loss of energy by consentrating it given off as heat. Always remember that the measurement of the sunlight collected is on the entire surface of the collector (i.e. before it enters the lens) and not on the concentration area created by the lens.

    If we had one-square foot of photovoltaic cells they would collect more energy than 1/2 foot of photovoltaic cells with one square foot of sunlight being concentrated upon them by a lens because of the loss of energy as the light passes through the lens.

    The Law of Conservation of Energy cannot be violated as energy cannot be created or destroyed. The Ford Motor Co has not made a proposal that violates the Law of Conservation of Energy.

    Of note though it maybe less expensive to use fewer photovoltaic cells and a Fresnal lens than using more photovoltaic cells. In short it is a sacrifice of energy collection based upon the cost per unit of energy collected. More efficiancy is not necessarily cost effective. Sort of like in auto racing where horsepower is based upon cubic dollars spent. It's inexpensive to build a 200 bhp engine that will operate for hundreds of thousands of miles but a 10,000 bhp drag racing engine is very expensive to build and it will only last for a couple of miles at most.
     
  14. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    There are many reasons for change and they vary from person to person.

    When I say 95%, I mean the other 95% of Americans who don't buy hybrids or shop at farmer's markets...in other words...the masses.

    I think people will generally accept slow gas price increases up to some level...IMO this is anything >$4.50/gallon average. At this level, as history shows us, the economy is effected. If the increase to $5/gallon or higher are slow then people will tolerate and/or adjust easier. If prices hike 25% quickly or more then people will have big problems and will be looking for alternatives. Technology moves quite slowly and acceptance by the masses is slow...so the best bet is for people to be ready for change just prior to the oil hitting the fan...
     
  15. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

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    Fusion could help make high speed rail a more practical reality.
     
  16. wyly

    wyly Well-Known Member

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    i'd invest in green energies...the petroleum industries are investing into new green technology, they understand the problem with fossil fuels and know it all has to change...even the nuclear industry understands, I have a family member who is a senior executive with an international corporate giant(uranium and nuclear power plants) and I'm told they too are developing wind and solar options...
     
  17. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

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    I believe fusion has scale economies to work with.
     
  18. politicalcenter

    politicalcenter Well-Known Member

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    A Fresnel lens will still start a fire.
     
  19. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

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    Fusion is what powers a sun.
     
  20. Not Amused

    Not Amused New Member

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    Fusion still creates radioactive wastes, and scientist haven't come up with a sustained reaction, let alone a process that is commercially viable. Being they have been working on fusion for quite a while, I don't expect results for 30 years.

    - - - Updated - - -

    What are you basing that on, cold fusion?
     
  21. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

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    You may need to read up on the latest advances in fusion.

     
  22. Earthling

    Earthling New Member

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    Rest assured that the big boys will know where to invest when the time is ripe and how to get the best return from Joe public.
     
  23. Not Amused

    Not Amused New Member

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    Did you read the article?

    Do you know how inefficient lasers are? That this test operated on one pellet, not a stream of pellets (required for continuous operation)?

    They have been working on fusion for 50 years
    , and you're getting excited by that "break through"?

    As far as a fusion powered train
    A $3.5B train engine???

    In support of my rant about climate "modeling"
    .
     
  24. Not Amused

    Not Amused New Member

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    Watch 60 Minutes last episode, and get back to us on that.
     
  25. wyly

    wyly Well-Known Member

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    sure you go ahead and get your info from tv I'll stick with my direct sources in the petroleum and nuclear industries...
     

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