germany will use its army more in foreign conflicts

Not americans, but the American Constitution, the first Constitution in the world.. USA is the older Country in the world if we understand country like a group of free citizens, national sovereignty etc. .. In Europe, we were Kings´ subjects
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Really?

1.- Who blockaded Berlin,starting point of the Cold War?
2.- Who invaded South Korea in 1950? USA?
3.- Who started the Greek Civil War in 1944/46 to 1949?
4.- Who didn´t respect the Geneva agreements and invaded South Vietnam? USA?
5.- Who didn´t respect the N.U agreements partition of Palestine??
6.- Who started the secessionist wars in Katanga and Biafra?
7.- Who invaded Hungary in 1956?
8.-Who invaded Czechoslovakia in 1968?
9.- Who invaded Suez Cannal in 1956?
10.- who divided India in 1947/49?
11.- Who attacked Israel in 1947 - 1973?
12.- Who invaded Kuwait in 1990?
13.-Who invaded India in 1962?

Etc etc etc... Were the U.S.A.? No. I think the main american mistakes have been in Cuba and Nicaragua...And in all these cases for not intervene in time: They should have overthrown Batista, Somoza etc and would have avoided the Castros, Ortega etc. ..

Right.. Against a country had treacherously.attacked them in 1941 and had committed some awful crimes in China, Philippines etc.
The invasion of Japan in 1945 would have probably inflicted the death of 500,000 Americans and 2 million Japanese ...

From Constitution?

Regards

 

ROFL.

It was the US who requested the first time Germany to violate this during the Vietnam war and send additional troops. It was again a request of the US administration in 1991 during the war with Iraq to do so. Then for Somalia, the Kosovo, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, nowadays Syria.

It is one country in the world, that wants Germany to raise its military budget and take the deputy star and invade other countries, that is the US and only the US. Because of that our troops stand in Afghanistan, if its up to Germany, we can live gladly with a US and a UK, fighting their dirty wars on their own.

 

Good idea.

- - - Updated - - -

Cutting tax is a good idea. Depends which taxes do you cut. It can lead to long time investments which you can also benefit from, when the growth is decreasing.

 

Why dont you do it? Stop pestering the European countries to involve in your dirty invasions of other countries. I am positive about it. American ambitions in Afghanistan should be paid with American blood, its stupid to put even the life of one single German soldier at stake for it.

 

So moral superiority comes from constitution? Not convincing at all. As if other sovereign states coudn't or shouldn't handle their politics on their own just because their constitutions aren't as old. And as if this gave Americans the right to judge and criticize other countries and their pasts while completely ignoring their own violent history. This hypocrisy is the problem (in my book).

I also fail to see that moral superiority is justified by having the world's biggest military. To me it's more "we have it, so we use it, and we don't care what the rest of the world thinks".
Regarding the number of military conflicts: it doesn't need a military invasion like in Hungary or Czechoslovakia. US military politics is usually a lot more hidden from the public. I'm not going to list the more than 70 occasions on which secret operations were carried out, democratically elected governments overthrown and sovereign states invaded. Operation Ajax, coup d'eta Chile, Laos, Cambodia to name but a few, even William Kristol didn't know it when confronted with the facts. Brzeziński admitted on one occasion that the US set a trap for the Soviets to enter Afghanistan, but I could imagine someone argueing that it's the evil Russians, so it doesn't really count.
Might want to read John Pilger.

Regarding atomic bombs: yes, imperial Japan started the pacific conflict with Pearl Harbor, so? Is that supposed to be a convincing justification to drop those little boys on a country that had already offered surrender? Again, Trueman had that thing, so he used it.
Might want to read Eugene Jarecki.
Curtis Le May said "I suppose if I had lost the war, I would have been tried as a war criminal." I assume he knew what he was talking about.
Might want to read Robert S. McNamara.

BTW, what should we call the invasion of Iraq in 2003? Maybe treacherously? The amount of deception and propaganda used by G.W. Bush, D. Cheney, Rumsfeld and others would have made Josef Goebbels very proud. WoMD? Yeah, right.

During the cold war, US military hegemony was certainly what kept the Soviets at bay. But what worked so gloriously in the years following WWII, hasn't worked quite as well since. The oversimplified notion "we are the only good on this planet", however, still seems to be very popular among some.

And - my original statement was: Where does this moral superiority come from when the US has blood on its hands just like so many other nations that have gone to war in the past.
To me there is no justification for this moral superiority.

 

Well I agree; there is no justification. But to Americans there is. It's called nationalism. Every country has their nationalists.

I think holding Americans to account for the dropping off the atomic bomb is overblown. Since then the world has learned of the dangers, so have the Americans in spades.
We as Australians (with a small economy) are very grateful to the Americans. They ensure the relevance of the UN - the only bulwark against world anarchy for 70 years.

 

Caligula

The Moral Superiority comes from American Revolution (Adan Smith, Montesquieu and all that). No, USA haven´t right to judge other countries save that countries have asked for their help. . About their "violent" history compared to any European country would be a kind of peaceful Budhist temple´s bend.
The only great war in history of USA was the war between States (1861-1865)..What a difference in Europe!

s

Lke the european countries but without the bloodshed caused by european.

I thought The biggest military budget It was USSR.

Ok, I suppose you´re right... Where´s there were more killings, houses destroyed... in the "coup d´Etat" for example Chili or Guatemala... or in a invasion or civil war?... for example... Chili, 1973 or Barbarossa, 1941... Guatemala 1954 (CIA) or Russia 1918 (Cheka). If we do the comparation between CIA or CHEKA... CIA is a gang of Saint Nicholas... CHEKA killed more people in a weekend than CIA in 70 years!!!!

http://moroshistory.wikispaces.com/...ishing+the+new+regime+–+the+CHEKA,+RED+TERROR

http://www.itukforum.co.uk/Thread-The-Cheka

What I said: CIA... 5 years old children compared to the almighty Cheka commanded by dreadful Feliks Dzierżyński!!!!

Who says evil russians? Not me, of course, I lived in East Europe and I could see the defects and virtues of the socialist system.. Russian aren´t evil... the Communism yes! the absolute lack of freedom, widespread distrust, the total disregard the individual... I lived in a country where for only born there you were right to have a 60 euros salary (198, a railways engineer, who had worked on Metro Hong Kong and also in rail lines in China, Vietnam .... He earned 90 euros per month! It´s truth: House, Education, Sanity are free (well, house very very very cheap) and the public transport the best in the world... and the cheapest I think, food very cheap too, but, of course, only the few things you can buy in the empty shop!... If you wanted to buy clothes were cheap also.. but if you wanted to buy western sport shoes: for example. Adidas, Puma, Nike etc... its cost about 100/120 euros... (I know Euro didn´t exist in that time).You ought to save two years to buy that kind of shoes! About cars... It´s a Joke how access to right to buy it!!!!! Holidays were cheap too (if you go to the hostel, hotel etc belonged to the Union = Party). But if you wanted to go to Italy.... or I ought to say West Germany.... I repeat, Russian aren´t evils... nor DDR.. but the system was evil! In USA I´m sure nobody know the "spies"... in DDR or in other country I lived...Everybody knows or could imagine who was "the block" spy, the "spy" in the job... the "spy" in the holiday Hostel... etc etc etc
So When I speak about comunist.. I don´t speak by books.. but by personal experience... and of course, I didn´t know the bad times!!!! But friends of me that studied in Soviet Union between 1949 - 1955 told me many things abouth the Stalin´s Socialist Paradise!!!!!

Of course, I don´t like atomic bombs.. but you can contextualize: American moral shock after the battles of Iwo Jima and Okinawa...Japand didn´t want to surrender.. In fact, after the two atomic bombs there were people wanted to continuos the war... But of course, the use of Atomic Bomb is coward, and discreditable.. What people don´t know It´s more civilians were killed in the criminal bombing of Dresden than in Hiroshima or Nagasaki.. and the bombing of Dresden lacked of military interest.. It was a Terror bombing, a british crime of war.

Yes, the fact to be jugded is only if you win or lost the war. Who judged Stalin? Who judged Dresden? Who judged Hiroshima? If you win, your will is law and is moral. It easy: Hitler and Mussolini lost, they are criminal... Lenina and Stalin won.. they are heroes! (and Mussolini is Santa Klaus compared to Lenin or Stalin).

Like another invasion in the history.. What shoul we call the invasion of Spain by Napoleon in 1808? But in Irak, Saddan Hussein was a criminal...
I won´t cry to that murderer who gassed his own citizens.

.

I think CCCP obtained the military hegemony in the sixties: warhead, missiles, tanks, cannons, soldiers etc etc etc.. The soviet army was 300 kms from the french border...

Yes, everybody has blood, USA less blood than others, but also have Blood... so Have you ever think Why other nations who have committed horrific crimes dare to judge the USA morality?

Regards

 

I don't think the U.S. has any less blood on their hands than anyone else. They committed genocide against the Native Americans, killed hundreds of thousands of their own in the Civil War, helped Communism become masters of the Earth in WWII (so they share in its death toll), killed plenty in foreign conflicts through out the 20th century during the Cold War, contributed to the deaths of a half a million children in Iraq through sanctions, etc.

Americans like to throw stones from their glass house but they've brought plenty of misery on the world.

Operation Barbarossa was the most righteous use of military power in world history. Who cares what others say about it? They're ignorant of the realities of Bolshevism. The Germans were hailed as liberators and people still honor their efforts to this day in nations under Stalin's death grip. Just very recently thousands gathered in, I believe, Estonia to honor the Germans valiant effort against Joseph Stalin in their crusade to free the world from Communist barbarism.

Long live Germany
[video=youtube;1WOdkhqt_dE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WOdkhqt_dE[/video]

 

Not even close

Other people

Socialism wasn't a tyrannical force in Europe prior to the war. It was in the USSR but that doesn't excuse the loss of some 20 million people.
And of course the genocide that the Nazis used to maintain this bloody and barbaric crusade.

 

A preemptive strike against the Soviet Union before Stalin could throw the largest military in the world at Europe? Destroying Bolshevism? Liberating millions of souls from Soviet slavery?
Even in defeat, Hitler and the Germans saved Western Europe. Stalin had 30 million soldiers that would of washed over Europe like a red tide.

You English really are getting what you deserve. Nobody deserves their fate in the form of Islamic take more over than you.

The world will be better off without the hypocritical, envy-driven injustice of the English character. Maybe your new Masters will be more sensible than you are and always have been, which is not sensible at all.

 

About time too - those bone idle, pacifist Germans ought to mix it again with the big boys - instead of using Hitler as an excuse for doing nothing.

 

Im not pacifist at all and many germans aren't pacifist as well, but of course we have them...

 

so how come you've all been sitting around comfortably for the last 50 yrs, using the Nazis as an excuse for not doing anything difficult?

 

Like what? Invading Iraq to find weapons of mass destruction? In case you missed it, the German nation was nearly destroyed and exterminated, and forced into an unconditional surrender after doing something far more difficult than any Brit or America has ever had to do, in fighting to the last in the defense of Western civilization against the largest military in the world. Meanwhile, the British and Americans were turning their cities and children into ash. Now they should be sending their military to help America in its military adventurism in the Middle East?

Germany should continue doing what it is doing, but under new political leadership. All it has to do is wait and carry on and it'll outlast them all.

 

When we consider that Germany has gone along with the idea of 'liberal democracy', then it should have got involved more - because most of it's leaders since WW2 have not been National Socialists.

Not that I agree with most of the American imperialism, of course, but even so - how long can you keep using WW2 as an excuse.....can the Cambodians still use Pol Pot as an excuse? No way, that's all too long ago.

 

The only thing that you liberated people from was their mortal coil.

Islam taking over? That's a joke.
And when you mean English do you mean British or actual Englishmen?

Well maybe you'd better stop using my language then.

Eh?

Again what are you talking about?

 

How do you come to that? 50 years? Germany was one of the supposed main battlefields when the Cold War would have turned hot. West Germany was engaged in the NATO as East Germany in the Warsaw Pact.

I suppose you mean the rather passive role after the reunification. The main point is, the invasions of other countries are very unpopular in Germany, especially of other countries like Afghanistan which are not our buiseness. To be concrete which military interventions would you like to have seen supported by the German army?

 

Excuse for what?

And which military invasions would you recommend Germany? I donlt know many in the last decades which did not serve the American imperialism. You say you dont like that, so which country should Germany invade then according to you?

 

That's a fair point, and I agree with you.

 

Once I see this topic, I know some people must talk about WW2, come on lets talk about wars that raised by the US throughout this 70years (both directly and indirectly. Let alone other works dirty works never mentioned by media)
Its normal to have appropriate military power for a country which is big enough, I think Germany deserves it.

I think Europe countries don't wanna be too "small" in front Of Russia and the US right?

 

Some people are stuck in the past and believe that history will repeat itself. But the fact is that we've all moved on and have different ideas for the future.

The US seems to have taken on the role of the worlds policeman although this has been met with limited success.

I think Germany has an appropriately sized military and isn't so powerful as to be a threat.

Size doesn't matter so much on the battlefield any more as a smaller well equipped and well trained force can defeat a much larger force.

 

The point is that we stopped to think of our country as a Großmacht, in categories like national interest. So it's very hard to motivate us for wars. While a US president gets elected again if he starts a war in his first period, a German chancellor gets NOT elected again if he does this.
But the question is, if we start to think and see our interests like the US, where and how we would use our army. Perhaps we would agree with Russia that they can have the Ukraine if we get Königsberg back. Or try to drive the USA out of Europe. German interests are in Europe not in the Middle East we just don't use our military anymore to enforce our interests.

 

why so much ferocity, hate or anger against the germans? what did they did to you guys? True, technically austro-hungarian empire started WW1 but dont forget i was a serbian terrorist attack and political murder that triggered the austro-hungarian rage, and WW1 shoudn't have been so, if not by these stupid traties (britain, france, russia, serbia on one side and the austria-hungary, italy, germany on the other) it would have been only a 2 country war and not a global one. Also don't forget that after the WW1 only germany was held responsible for all that happened and was imposed with an almost imposible economical sanction of repaying a debt for all the damage done against an almost economically ruined germany among others santions like losing 25 to 30% of their national territory. And they knew germany cound not pay and then belgium and france started to steal german coal from the demilitarized rhineland. Don't forget that those things happened with the blessing of the US (who got invloved in a war that wasn't theirs at all). Of course the germans were pissed off cause that was a legalized act of revenge not a peace treaty. There is always a moral duty from the winner towards the defeated, ALWAYS!!! a sense of JUSTICE!!! which did not apply here. Also they draw the new map of europe as they saw fit, with no consideration for the defeated (Austria-hungary dissapeard from the map forever) and germany was sliced and diced. Now i agree with the creation of poland, for they were not russians nor germans but cut germany in two to give poland a sea board? i don't think so... it's true that the german province of "Posen" was populated mostly by poles but i think there was no real need to cut germany from "east prussia" or "Ostpreußen". The winners fertilized the ground for the national-socialists (Nazis) to rise, with there atheism and extreme hatred, ultranationalism, extreme racism, regain of every lost territory, extreme anti-religiousness, imperialism, expansionism (to the east) and so on... Because many germans feeled they lost the war cause they fought fair during WW1, cause their christian moral standards abandoned them in the hour of need, like monstruos inflation, broken economy, monstruos unemployment, starving, cold winters, french and belgians stealing there coal (that could have warmed them during these winters), many who managed to profit from this situation, the rise of marxism in germany and the whole of the left wing (many knew what and how Lenin controled the newly soviet union, what stalin was doing after he gaind power), etc. created the unhappyness, fear and hatred towards the winners (france and great britain) and soviet marxism in germany (don't forget that the KDP Kommunistisches Partei Deutschlands = german communist party were lackeys of stalin and followed his orders to the letter and some commies separatists tried to establish a communist republic in bavaria called the soviet republic of bavaria = Bayerische Räterrepublik independent from the rest of germany). So yeah, the germans were pissed off and very angry. All this malcontent found sanctuary in the newly formed NSDAP National-Sozialistische Deutsche Arbeiter Partei = national-socialist german workers party. But that was not everything. Hitler managed to imbue the NSDAP doctrine (already full of general miscontent and hatred) with his personal racial points of view, totalitarism and megalomania and narcissism. The brits, the yanks and frenchs brought WW2 not just on them selves, but all europe and most of the world. They with their vengefull traties against germany ended up unleashing an unknown hellish demon over europe and the rest of the world. It's true, almost all nazis were germans and austrians, but not even 1/3 of germans and austrians were nazis. I'm not sure if half the german population were supporters either cause with the nazis and marxists, you either love'em or hate'em. There's no middle ground. Maybe markus will clarify my numbers. But also do you think the russian commies were ANY BETTER than the german nazis???? have you forgoten what lenin, stalin, kruschev, brezhnev, andropov, chernenko and maybe gorbachov did???? you forget the crimes, war crimes and crimes agaisnt humanity marxism has done???? you think that the "cheka" later "NKVD" later "KGB" and now "FSB", were and are any better than the nazi SS = SchutzStaffel?????? Hitler was evil, the nazis were evil, but so are the marxists. The nazis lasted only 12 years, and by action or omision, directly, indirectly, nazism cost the lives of 50 to 60 million people. The marxists have lasted more than 97 years, and by action or omision, directly or indirectly, marxisms has cost the lives of undetrmined hundreds of millions of people all around the world. Marxism has murderd, tortured, mutilated, disppeard at least 5 times more people than nazism, Soviet Union, China, North Korea, Vietnam, Cambodia, East Germany, Hungary, Chechoslovakia, Cuba... you name it.

Germany should intervene in foreign nations if the reasons are right (That's why NATO was founded for in the first place). And also i think maybe Germany should intervene in Ukraine militarly and increasingly more and more harsh economical sanctions against russia. Don't forget what putin is trying to do, what he's done already, what do you guys say about THAT????

You guys hate the germans cause they were nazis 68 years ago, ok, but do you hate the russians, the chinese, the north koreans, the cubans for being marxist dictatorships back then????? do you hate them because they are still marxists TODAY???? you guys say that it's wrong for the germans to rearm themselves and intervene elsewhere, but do you feel the same that putin is trying to rebuild the soviet union???? that north korea constantly makes trouble against south korea and japan???? that the chinese are causing a lot of trouble against south korea, japan, taiwan, philippines, vietnam????

Another thing, germany has paid a terrible price for what they did and I think it’s been long enough for that. Did the russians paid for what they did against themselves and eastern europe and germany during and after WW2???? I believe the germans have learned most of there hard lesson, cause if they really would have learned the full hard lesson, they would be already fighting against dictatorships and tyrnats around the world (like Putin).
They know better than anyone in the world what dictatorships and tyrants mean after 12 years of Nazism they where split in 2 and the eastern part ruled by Marxists tyrants, not to mention that they had to keep paying a debt of Versailles to france that germany finished paying in 2012 or 2013 I don’t remember. France had the nerve (as if they won the war, which they couldn’t without help from the brits and yanks in 2 wars) to keep demanding money for compensation with an arrogance as if they had nothing to do with the basis of WW2. Did france learned their lesson after the war???? NO!!!! Did the soviets learned a lesson after the war???? NO!!!! Look what they did a few years ago against Georgia, look what they’re doing right now to Ukraine. Germany compensated (and as far as I know they still compensate) a country that DID NOT EXIST in 1945! I mean israel. Compensating the victims of WW2 is cool, but profiting from it as israel has? When they didn’t even existed? Why the hell did west germany or the BRD = Bundesrepublik Deutschland compensated denmark after the war in the 50s (I mean Denmark was barely touched in terms of destruction unlike it’s brother and neighbor norway, and yet Norway didn’t ask for any compensation) france, Israel, soviet union? Why didn’t Austria paid compensations? Why didn’t east Germany or DDR = Deutsche Demokratische Republik paid compensations? Nazis came from all Germany and Austria NOT JUST west Germany!!!! Also did the soviets compensate the victims of their tyranny and brutality during the war???? Did Yugoslavia after the war compensated all the victims of the croatian nazi regime, the so called ustashas???? Did the italians pay compensations for the victims of fascism under Il Duce Mussolini???? NO!!!! They did not! Only west Germany. True, the nazis exterminated and tortured and experimented on and mutilated and disapeard over 6 million jews. But what about the jews that had a similar fate under the regime of the Ustashas? What about the jews that were murdered by the NKVD under stalin in the soviet union???? You guys gonna tell me you did knew that?? Were the jews murdered by the germans more important, more humans, worth more than the others? The fact remains that it’s easy to kick a defeated, humiliated, broken and flattened country and cutted in half like Germany was after WW2. Another fact is that communist Yugoslavia, communist east Germany and the soviet union didn’t give a damn about the atrocities done by them or others, they just took political advantage of that and of course they woulnd’t pay a damn thing to anyone anyway. The jews have, alongside the socialist and commies, a very selective memory and make a lot of fuss and noise against Germany but who remembers the free masons, jehova witnesses, gay, lesbians, gipsies, catholics, lutherans, intelligentsia of other countries, poles, Polish POWs, serbs, serb POWs, russians, russian POWs, crippled, insasne, free thinkers, political dissidents, germans, men, women, old, children, babies, unborn and more who were imprisoned, tortured and murdered by the Nazis (the T4 sterilization program in the 30s along with the eugenics and euthanasia state policies that ended up being a feast for the Nazis and so on&#8230 since 1933 to 1945???? Who remembers all those above???? Are those worth less than the jews? Are less human than the jews? Are less important than the jews? The jews were not the only ones who suffered, the whole world suffered! Hell, why doesn’t the whole world ask for compensations too? Everyone who lost someone fighting the germans could ask for compensation from Germany too!

Enough of political and economical profiting from WW2, remember your dead and what happened but bury them, let them go, let them rest!

And by the way, the germans of today are quite diffrent from the germans from 68 years ago. Just so you know guys...

Love & Peace… ;D

 

Germany is the only thing that can save Europe from itself. What country in Europe has the ability to build a defensive military machine to go against the Russians or Chinese? Only the Germans. France and other European countries are a joke militarily and politically.

 

It certainly isn't the Germans and Britain is the country that has consistently saved Europe from itself and that's because we are more distant from the continent.