Gunman in Australia threatens to shoot crowd

The precence of firearms will cause firearm deaths. The precence of knives will cause Knife related deaths
The precence of automobiles will cause automobile deaths. You can't just take something away just because a few people were irresponsible with what they own, and taking it away just makes increases on other tools used for murder, in the end, the murder rate does not change, the only thing that has ever changed in places that banned guns was the murder by guns, but not the overall murders, so how does that help?

 

Abortion is illegal in most states of Australia

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Actually it does not do that because the other tools have less lethality

 

Then how do you explain your murder rate not changeing. Yes a knife is not as lethal, but you can still kill someone with it.

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Then how do you explain your murder rate not changeing. Yes a knife is not as lethal, but you can still kill someone with it.

 

do you have a collection of violent drug smuggling cartels walking tons of drugs across the border of Australia, supplying the gangs of western Sydney, and Melbourne with tons of illegal drugs problem? oh wait, just looked at Google earth, Australia is an island.

Australia is also not as populated as the united states, dose not have the same infrastructure as the united states, has a different population demographic than the united states, has a different ecology than the united states. is not governed by a constitutional republic like the united states, and i think your government deports illegal alien criminals as well, unlike the united states government, that lets them walk our streets.

if you look at the internals of the statistics on gun crime in the us. a majority of murders involve drugs in some manner, are between, or involve known gangs members, some involve known criminals. and many members of the most violent gangs, are illegal aliens with ties to international drug smuggling cartels.

gun bans lawws effect those individuals....how?

most gun murderers, because of brushes with the law, are already subject to a ban, illegal aliens are also subject to a ban by nature (cannot provide legitimate id) so in effect, the significant majority of individuals who are committing the majority of murders, are already under a gun ban that they ignore. and, a drug smuggler is in the business of moving what makes them money, it could just as easily be tons of illegal guns and ammunition coming across the borders as it is tons of pot.

all of your acrimonious opinions about american getting a clue, american give up your guns to become righteous, is not a solution to what is not in any way, an australian problem that you have to deal with. or a problem that you have shown you even understand.

a majority of Americans will resent like hell, any government that attempts to ignore the clear wording of the constitution, and will not give up the guns the government doesn't know about,

care to guess how many legal, but undocumented firearms i own? (that is, firearms that were in the possession of my family before the 1968 gun act, that rifle in my icon, how old do you think that is?)

during the 20's, we had a constitutional Prohibition of alcohol, it was seen as a infringement on natural rights by a significant number of Americans, and was ignored to the detriment of american respect for civil law across the united states, the gift we got from this, the mafia. care to think how a ban on alcohol would work in Australia?

so, one wonders what effect anunconstitutional Prohibition of firearms, there for, a illegitimate law by the standards of american governance, would have on the average Americans respect for the law?

bowerbird, a suggestion, before you go implying that all of us Americans are barbarians simply because of one item to which you are passionate opposed, work at understanding us a bit.

 

Not that rare considering population density.

 

And where is your proof that our overall murder rate did not change??
http://aic.gov.au/media_library/publications/mr/21/mr21.pdf

What you really need to do is compare attempted murder rate with actual murder rate - and that would be difficult to do because the woman brought in with a knife wound to her back after a serious domestic argument, well her partner might only be charged with grievous bodily harm not attempted murder

The statistics we have that say gun lethality is a huge factor in the homicide rate are from medical sources who are treating the resulting wounds

 

Unlawfully held guns cannot be counted, but in Australia there are estimated to be 550,000 to 6 million.

http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/australia

 

First off I have asked questions about why your rate is higher than ours I have never told Americans they should "get a clue"

IF you want to blame drug cartels fine - but to me that is another "it's all because of bad people" excuse. But that is exactly what it is, an excuse. You cannot seriously contend that no other country in the OECD has the same problems as you?



And yes we DO have smuggling - they even smuggle people across from Indonesia and we have a huge coastline and a small navy you better believe there is smuggling - maybe not as much as the US but we have it

We also have illegal ICE and meth labs and our population density in our cities is much the same as yours

 

i am paraphrasing the tone of the criticism we Americans are reading from overseas members of the forum. thought that was obvious. so sorry.

blaming drug cartells? well actualy, i was merely pointing out the fact,most of the BAD PEOPLE we are talking about, are known by our law enforcement to be gang members, they usual shoot each other in disputes over marketing drugs, or other illicit activities. and they will get guns trough the cartel's, no matter what we do.

laws are imposed on all members of society, and followed by the law abiding, they would not be followed by the gangs, who will get there guns, where they get there drugs should a domestic supply dry up.

truth is, any law that bans guns, would in fact, violate the second amendment to the constitution (and that is how america governs herself, so the constitution is important) it also violates the most current understanding of the constitution, by the supreme court. not to mention the fact that gun bans are not supported by a majority of Americans, or even by a majority of states.

my thought is that usually, in a democratic system, is that a legitimate government is supposed to follow the will of the people.

in short, you have little knowledge of the problem on the ground here in america. yet are not hesitant with uninformed advice as to what we should do about it.

ok, america is violent, and america has guns, and the existence of guns,,,is the cause of the violence? please explain the correlation, i did make a correlation between the
"war" currently, between the cartels, the Mexican government, mexico shares a long shares a border with us, last time i looked Australia shared no close overland ties to a failing country that was at war with criminal elements within its own borders.

and most of our smuggling is from violent south american drug cartels, to violent criminal "gangs", who have the convenience of an overland rout, witch may explain the disparity of the amount of smuggling. you admit to. and again, that it is primarily the street gangs in america who are the ones known to be commuting most of the murders, is relevant. because our problem with gun crime, is not a problem with legal guns, or law abiding people, it is a problem with the criminals, and law breaking people.

, yes, we have meth labs, ice labs, pot farms, and transportees had something to with the makeup of our countries founders in the past,other than that?

Australia is under commonwealth law, america is under english common law only so far as that law is in agreement with the Constitution of the United States.

Australia's governance, the demographics of her population, her ecology, her culture, her language, her geopolitical place on the globe, her time zone. her history, and her law, are not the same as those things in america, they are merely similar in a few respects to those things in america.

how about if we agree to this,
I haven't told you how to tie your kangaroo down.
please don't tell me how to bait my grisly bear.​

 

You know whenever someone says something like "most murders are committed by gangs" I would like proof, silly of me I know but essential I assure you

So let us look at the FBI databases

So guns top the list of how to top someone
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/uc...s.-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-8

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/uc...w-enforcement/expanded/expandhomicidemain.pdf

Does not look like your statement holds up - can you provide data backing your contention?

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You know whenever someone says something like "most murders are committed by gangs" I would like proof, silly of me I know but essential I assure you

So let us look at the FBI databases

So guns top the list of how to top someone
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-8

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/offenses-known-to-law-enforcement/expanded/expandhomicidemain.pdf

Does not look like your statement holds up - can you provide data backing your contention?

 

I presuppose opposition to any mandate that goes beyond the non-aggression principal. In order to impose them, we must violate natural law, and I think it's high time we all become civilized and punish the initiation of force insofar as we can.

 

I have already shown you the murder rate has not changed, why do you continue to want me to show you the same thing over and over again?

 

What do you mean Australia is under Commonwealth law?

 

y'all are ruled over by some weezy old lady that needs help going to the loo
at least our wannabe despotic ruler can wipe his own behind, til we get him gone in the next election

 

The Queen has no power to make laws for Australia.

 

Australia is a British colony, is it not? Australia doesn't have independence from the crown. Royalty influences policy...............yep, yer ruled by some old woman.......and an established penal colony, which has not changed on the books, either .......yep
That's why Aussie's will never know the taste of Liberty being a Citizen, only that of a lowly subject........

 

Australia is not a colony.

 

.........why, sure it is

 

No you have not - you have stated same but you have "proven" nothing

Figure 1 page 4

and figure 2 page

http://aic.gov.au/media_library/publications/mr/21/mr21.pdf

 

bowerbird
Your right it is the fault of the gun that is the reason and the only reason why we have gun crime with out that even if gun drug dealers would no longer deal drugs in fat they will be come model citizens the murders and raspiest will no longer commit those crimes after all the gun made them do it. that is all you are saying.
You also ignore the fact that guns stop hundreds of thousands of crimes a year. you also ignore that most gun deaths include suicide. and banning guns is not going to stop that. also included in your numbers are police shooting criminals and civilians shooting criminals. Why do you want people to be victims of crimes and not allowed to defend themselves? Because that is all you are condoning,

 

Straw men based on bad and unsupported research

PS my numbers are AUSTRALIAN - did you actually check them out? And do you realise that we can count the number of police shootings per year nationwide as less than about a dozen - max

Even the OP the police took the shooter down with BEAN BAGS

See not every defence has to be with a gun loaded with bullets

 

all of your statistics are so out-dated, they can be used for the bird cage now

FACT CHECK: Gun debate deals in moldy stats

WASHINGTON (AP) — Some of the numbers being hurled around in the gun control debate passed their freshness date eons ago. Perhaps none is more prominent than the claim that 40 percent of gun sales take place without background checks.

The statistic is ubiquitous these days and cited as gospel by a variety of public figures and gun-control advocates, President Barack Obama among them, but it is 20 years old and was not much more than an educated guess at the time.

It's no wonder policymakers are grasping at tatters of moldy data as they consider expanding background checks and banning certain weapons and ammunition. A 1996 law pushed by the gun-rights lobby closed the spigot on federal gun research, leaving scholars, private groups and states to pick up some pieces. Only now, under a recent order.........

http://news.yahoo.com/fact-check-gun...-politics.html

 

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There you go tweety bird! Note the rate spiked up a couple of years AFTER the ban. Where it finally starts going down loooooong after the ban coincides with the rest of the worlds drop in murder rates.

Basicly gun control is proven ineffective, once again.

 

Ba da ching!

 

Notice how low the rate is in the first place - low enough that one or two extra murders may well cause a "spike"

Still nowhere near the murder rate for the USA - most of which is guns

But I notice too that the figure you are displaying is not one that has come from the AIC report I linked to - in fact because you have "referenced locally" but have not provided a link to source it could have come from anywhere - but I agree it does match in with the AIC figures

Very interesting that you are wiling to state that the rise in homicide rate was unrelated to gun control measures but the fall over time (which is what would be expected given the change in societal attitude) is also unrelated. By other logic the spike could have been caused by factors which, had guns been freely available, caused a much much higher death rate

See you cannot claim one without claiming the other because correlation does not necessarily imply causation - which is why one must rely on analysis done by experts

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...-gun-law-critics/story-e6frerdf-1226565385266

http://www.monash.edu.au/news/show/...ro-gun-americans-abuse-australian-crime-stats