Holy Bible Scriptures: Hard to understand or easy to understand?

Yes I know and actually I have had some religious education (in collage). I do not get in arguments anymore about these things but I will explain the context thing.

What was the setting? Where?
What was the timeframe? When? Was it before, after or during the life of Christ? Before or after the transfiguration? Before or after the resurrection?
Who is the author and what else has been said/done/written by the author?
Who is the audience? Who was being spoken to?

Were these words written to the Christian of for the Christian? Those are two different things there.

 

So where do you stand on the doctrine of election?

 

That is a tough question there. Coming from Calvinist roots many of the protestant churches can not justify this and I have my own views based on conjecture.

God is omnipotent and that means omnipresent as well. Everything that ever was and ever will be has already been in the eyes of the lord. Things are beyond the comprehension of the common man because he tries to put God in a box.

So the only way for God to know is if it has already been seen by Him.So predestination to us is what has happened to God.

 

Paul spent much of his life persecuting and killing Christians. Christ called Peter the cornerstone of the church. When the Catholics put the bible together, they promoted the teachings of Paul, and eliminated the revelation of Peter.

 

So what is it? Conditional, unconditional, or concurrent?

I just taught a class on it, so I'm curious to see what you think.

 

Thank you for qualifying yourself. There is nothing we can do to change what will be as it has already been. From the time God set things in motion it has been ordained however we do/did/will have the choice but in our caporal understanding we can not grasp that we have done it already. It is when some try to think outside the box that they have put God in (God can not be understood in mans terms until he (man) accepts that he (man) is not the master of all) that they get confused and lose their way.

It is conversations as this that I have started to avoid on the interwebs as they could cause a new Christian to ask questions that their heart is not ready to comprehend.

 

So its unconditional in your eyes?

 

NO because we have already made our choices. Even before we open the door we have reached our destination in the eyes of God.

 

So you're not a calvinist?

 

What has been preordained has been so as it had already been. To believe in predestination as some believe means that Christ lied.

The end was before the beginning and in this we see that predestination is nothing more than God looking back on who Chose him before they had the comprehension of life.

 

John Macarthur, John Calvin, John Piper, C.H. Spurgeon, R.C. Sproul, and alistair Begg would all disagree with you. So who's right?

 

If we have predestination then who is whosoever? If there is no free choice then what is the point?

 

Exactly, there are three sides to the issue, and for you to think you have it figured out just seems a bit arrogant to me. In my class I taught all three sides and let them make up their mind.

 

Okay I will put it this way and I am not disagreeing with you:

If I were to say that if you do not believe as I you are going to hell I have judged. I I say I do not agree with you then it is simply a disagreement.

Am I wrong in what I say? No I am not. This is not saying that I am right about everything but the fact is both views are not completely incorrect so if we delve further into this we find some things out.

Whosoever and predestination do not jive. There is enough to believe both are true though and the fact is (to me anyway) they go hand in hand because the end and the beginning have already happened in the eyes of the father. To have known one in the womb before the existence of all and yet also be the beginning and the end suggest God is everywhen or omnipresent. God being omnipresent means that we were chosen because we chose before the foundation of existence as we know it. This is not to say that I know but it is to say that it is the only way I can make sense of it and it is the 2nd best explanation I have heard with the first being the "These things are of God and not for man to ponder. He that is and was and will be is not some toy you can put in a box and use as a tool. Ours is to love the master in body and spirit both Father and Son with all of our heart, mind and soul".

This is why I said I do not argue and debate these things but you now make me want to do some greek and hebrew studies as the translations are not wrong but the meaning of translated words change and many times speculative meaning is not necessarily the real meaning.

 

Because they try to fit a fictional fantasy book to reality.

 

Those who read it do not take it as "vague"....

 

Thats why I responded to your response. In my youth I thought I had all the "biblical" answers only to find out that I don't. I've studied both Greek and Hebrew, and come up with "unconditional election". Am I right? maybe, maybe not, but its the only answer that makes sense to me. This is not an essential salvation doctrine.

In a class of over 40 people, only 2 agreed with me. I was fine with that, but to think that I have all the answers, or that some one else has all the answers, is arrogant at best.

 

My issue with any form of predestination that involves God choosing who is going where and only this option is "why?" Did Jesus lie? Whosoever can not mean whosoever unless we have already chosen and our choices were written in the book before we were. Am I right? Well lets put it this way; the Bible is not wrong! So the best I can do is have faith.

Honestly from a logical sense where 1 = 1; taking what we do know into consideration predestination and free will to choose are not correct unless they are together. When you put them together people get confused.

So the real answer to this is God is! Read your Bible and have faith in the Master for if you choose Him He will choose you. Do we have a choice? Yes but we probably made it before the beginning of time as we know it. Why are we predestined? Because we chose a path in life that God saw before we even knew.

No matter. I think we pretty much agree that it is more philosophy then anything else. But I must wonder as I ponder God does He ponder me? In my humanity I can not help but wonder this as I want the answers. Well I will get them just not in this life and by that time it will not matter.

Thanks for the thought provoking discussion as it is rare around here.

 

Yeah, I wish there were more thought provoking discussions around here, its usually somebody with an axe to grind.

 

So you went to "collage" did you? Did you use paste and scissors?
Describing what context is avoids the question of the poster. It's a dodge.

 

So you come down on the side that scripture can be hard to understand.
Fair enough.

 

So who do you pick?

 

Caporal? Your understanding is a strong, dark tobacco?
Is there any chance of a refund on your "collage" tuition?
When the problems in your posts are so consistent, it makes it very hard to establish any credibility, and that, too, will be a stumbling block to people you hope to lead to faith.
Who would follow an undisciplined leader?

 

No and your ineptitude helps nothing.

 

You are so right and I made a spelling error, I lest spell check correct without bothering to see if the word it used was correct.

The word is corporeal: 1. Of, relating to, or characteristic of the body. See Synonyms at bodily.
2. Of a material nature; tangible.

So you either knew exactly what I was saying and just wanted to be a jerk or you are that inept. Which is it? What has any of your stupid grasping at straws, in a conversation that you evidently do not want to comprehend, accomplished?