Homosexual Marriage (last part)

I wasn't born "straight" and neither was anyone else. Nobody was "born" straight or gay, it's all learned behavior.

Val

 

There is no credible evidence that anyone was born gay. There is an already overwhelming body of evidence that it's learned behavior. Pro-depravity supporters will continue to use "growing body of evidence" type logic to suggest their side will eventually win even though it's been losing all along.

The number of credible medical and mental health professionals that endorse the idea that anyone was "born gay" is exactly zero. Although I've read reams and reams of articles from homosexuals promoting their lifestyle by trying to justify it scientifically, including their long-since debunked research frauds, I've read way more from less biased Ph.D's who expose the research frauds and complain about how many death threats and hate mails they have rec'd every time they promote truth.

So you are saying that the research frauds trying prove genetic causation have failed and now you are looking for any other possible way to suggest it's not learned behavior. The answer will never be correct, in your opinion, until it says people are born gay, which it never has and never will. You just keep on dreaming that science will somehow align with your unsupportable opinion, some day, some how.

Why do I always see depravity promoters in forums talking about how homosexuals are "capable of procreation"? Could there be anything more immaterial? Is this an effort to try to hold on to the long-since-dead genetic argument? How much I know about gay people? Actually, your comments show how little you know about gay people. For five years I was just as "gay" as anyone has ever been. I'm not gay now, I don't even think about it and I don't have any attraction to or thoughts about same gender sex. There was NO mental health professional or religious fanatic involved in my reversal. I just decided for myself not to be involved in self-limiting behavior, I stopped thinking about it, halted all such decadent behavior, and the whole thing just dissipated. GONE. FINISHED. Just like that by force of will. Bad behavior is available to anyone but it's a huge, decadent, waste of time.

 

So should hetero couples who can't have children or chose not to be banned from getting married?

 

Even if your argument is correct, I do not know one way or another as I have not done a lot of research on the subject, you basically admit that it is not a choice if it is determined by environmental factors.

I know that I have been attracted to the same sex since I was about eleven or so, I have never been attracted to a chick although I do find some beautiful. It is unfair to deny me the same protections and benefits that you enjoy because of something that you do not agree with.

This is incorrect, there are many theories surrounding this. I did some research, quickly I might add, and came up with several different viewpoints ranging from "social, biological, and psychological factors."

http://www.narth.com/docs/bornway.html
http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1075
http://borngay.procon.org/view.answers.php?questionID=1335

Most of the studies I read all stated the various possible causes with with the exception of one type of site, the religious ones. All studies that were linked by religious sites completely ignored all of the research that disagreed with them. Interesting...

I am glad that you have "decided" to be straight and hope you can continue with your approved sexuality. I struggled for years with my sexuality, I was brought up around men, played sports, was thought the gays are gonna burn, even dated girls but in the end I am who I am. I was more traumatized by how gays were portrayed in the media and those around me than I really was of how I felt. I also do not think that anyone would choose to be something that so many people automatically hate and are often killed in some places. I do not think god loves me any less because of my failings as I am human.

“Come now and let us reason together,” says the Lord, “Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow.” ( Isaiah 1:18 )

“In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace.” ( Ephesians 1:7 )

If you have found the lord, and I hope you have, you will know that he and he alone has the right to condemn someone. You have no right to do so, lest you be judged.


As for the marriage issue, the US was founded on the belief for equality for all and for the right to follow any religion or path that you choose to take. You have no right to deny me and my partner (although we have no desire to wed even though we are in a long term, monogamous relationship) the right to the same benefits and protections that others, and now you, enjoy. Some say that religion is a choice (I believe that it is deeper than that but I digress) and wish to take away your rights. Can you prove that is something beyond your control? No you cant?

Be careful about whose rights you attempt to stop as one day the arguments you used against them will be used against you.

Good day

 

http://www.springerlink.com/content/p2365262023tkn31/

http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/271/1554/2217.short

http://zompist.wordpress.com/2011/10/21/levay-on-the-origins-of-homosexuality/

The study mentioned in that last cite: http://ramsites.net/~rgreen5/simon.pdf

And so on. while homosexuality (and bisexuality and so forth) might not be totally controlled by genes, but by a combination of genes, epigenetic factors, and environmentally-affected developmental changes.

 

Evidence seems to indicate that the alleles that produce homosexual behavior in organisms increase female fecundity, while some evidence indicates that homosexuals are more adept at raising children; additionally, some of the alleles that contribute to homosexuality increase parental care, which raises the fitness of offspring.

http://courses.washington.edu/evpsych/genetic factors in homosexuality ASB2009.pdf

http://econpapers.repec.org/paper/unowpaper/1999-19.htm

 

Evolution has not been 100% proven, therefore, claiming that it's more than just a scientific theory is wrong.

 

I recall that I was nine years old the first time I saw another boy at the playground hanging upside down on the bars so that his shirt was down revealing his torso. What an interesting day. I remember it well. Obviously it would not have mattered what gender the child was on the bars that day. I was just admiring the beauty of the human form. I was young and innocent. There wasn't a single thought about right or wrong. It was a very pure experience. But later it led to some extraneous thoughts (fantasies?). I don't regard that day as the beginning of my gay period. One thing led to another and by the time I was 13 my mother, a highly educated woman, sat me down for the "you are the custodian of your own mind" discussion. She explained that people choose what they will fixate on and there are consequences to fixating oneself on the wrong things because over time, habits are formed. The human mind is extremely prone to habituation. I've read research that proves that a person can fantasize about a car tire and through repeated masturbation and orgasms while thinking about the tire, they can become sexually attracted to it. It's interesting that some people find that surprising.

No doubt that some have argued about this subject long and hard. Years of huffing and puffing on both sides. We can get an idea of what pure thought on the subject looked like by checking out the opinions of the Ph.D's before the APA was attacked by militant gays back in 1972. Before the fear and politics took over, less than 1% of APA members thought there was anything genetic about homosexuality. Pretty much the same rates we have today regarding the other 3 well-known historical depravities (pedophilia, beastiality, and necrophilia). All 4 have the same result in the end - the individuals lose the ability to reproduce and their genetics do not go on to populate the next generation.

No doubt you are who you choose to be. It's called self-determination and it was God's first gift to humanity after the creation. I belong to a group that is far more discriminated against than the group you belong to. I'm a member of the ex-gay community and there are more of us than there are gay people. You can find our support group at pfox.org.

I'm not really clear on some of what you are saying but it is good to hear that you are a Christ follower. I've never been interested in condemning people. I keep my condemnations to Satan's lies. He deceives many, often with complex structures that reach up higher than the Tower of Babel itself.

I hope that you will remain a Christ follower. Beware the lies of the evil one.

Val

 

I don't think anyone hear 'learned' anything. We just are.

 

Necrophiliacs exist. They only want sex with dead bodies. Would it be fair to give "born that way" status only to homosexuals or should we extend the benefit to necrophiliacs as well?

Val

 

Having sex with a dead body is a crime. Having homosexual sex is not.

 

There isn't.

I wouldn't characterize having all the major medical and mental health associations coming down on the side that it isn't a choice "losing".

...because the research so far is inconclusive as to the mechanism. That doesn't mean they endorse the idea that it's a choice. They don't.

Sounds like you're reading a bunch of propaganda.

No, I'm saying the research is a long way from complete. While genetic causation hasn't been found, there is research that suggests a genetic connection. There is more to genetics that inherited traits. Still, "suggests" is not the same thing as proving cause and effect.

The failure to prove one theory (genetic causation) does not prove another theory (choice).

You aren't in a position to tell me what my opinion is, so don't even bother trying.

I have no expectation that science will resolve these questions within my lifetime. I expect that an answer, if one is found, will not be of the simplistic sort that some might wish.

I do not expect that science will determine that it's a choice. The indicators do not trend in that direction.

I suggest that you cease and desist with the name-calling.

Probably to refute idiotic statements that homosexuality would die out in a single generation if it were genetic.

No, it's an effort to reveal people who make stupid statements for the fools that they are.

Speaking as someone who is gay and has been for as long as I can remember (nearing 50 years), I feel pretty safe in saying that I know a fair amount about gay people.

I don't find your story credible. I'm inclined to think you were either temporarily confused about your orientation, or that you're just flat out lying. Or a third possibility: that you were confused about your orientation, and actually believe that you were able to change it by force of will.

Your experience in the matter doesn't mean that every person who experiences same-sex attraction can be rid of it so easily or even at all.

 

"Far more discriminated against"? Can't wait to see what you provide to support that laughable claim.

You said earlier it wasn't the influence of a religious fanatic that made you "change", but revealing yourself as "ex-gay" casts tremendous doubt on that.

At any rate, I have learned long ago that there is little point in trying to persuade someone whose opinion is mostly informed by their religious beliefs.

 

All? Not even close. But the death threats coming from the militant gays have been very effective. Before the militant gays stormed the APA meeting in 1972, less than 1% of the mental health professionals even thought of anything as preposterous as being "born that way".

Are we really going to go down the path of going back and forth about which side is guilty of the most propaganda?

The de facto answer is that it's a choice. The burden of proof is on the side of those espousing that it's genetic because self-interest is involved on their side. There's a clear conflict of interest for those who (often militantly and with violence) demand no accountability for their behavior.

ditto

It's more than a trend. The Human Genome Project has already said that sexual preference (which is multi-dimensional, not two-dimensional) is less than 1% caused by genetics.

Ditto. Note use of "idiotic", "fools", and the liar comment below.

Great! We can each agree not to discount each others life experiences.

Your experience doesn't mean that anyone has ever been born gay. Habituation is vastly more powerful than what people believe. I don't recall saying it was easy to change my own pattern of habituation. Such things are rarely easy but in my case, it was definitely worth the effort.

 

It also used to be thought that mental health could be restored by torture. They used to nearly drown "patients" as part of the "treatment"......So what is your point in claiming that it used to be viewed that homosexuality is a choice? There were lots of views about mental health that are wrong.

 

What I've learned is that people will fight and commit violence to protect their habituated behaviors. People love their decadence.

I'll never forget Bill Clinton's most memorable statement, made while he was president "If it feels good, it must be good".

 

No doubt. There are still many views about mental health that are wrong.

 

frustration

me

 

yes they do and you know it.

(we've been thru this many time overs, and you just dont like it)

 

my goal? That each are aware of what their life is before making choices. ie.... if their parents were homo, they wouldnt be here. Their selfish choice is keeping their whole lineage from living into the next generations

how about the universe?

how about the whole universe having lives capable of choice, procreating

That is like saying, killing babies is OK.

That is what lying to children is anyway. I mean, look at some of the posts on this thread/forum/internet.............. many have no clue and it is because they were/are lied to.

because the first life, lives longer; lives live longer

if it "supports life to continue," yes, that's "good"

i like the awareness that you are completely in foreknowledge that 'nature strives towards more life'..................... and nature is 'god' itself to me.

you got an atta boy!

 

banned? No


have the tax benefits removed?............ 'absolutely'

ie... if gays cant have the tax benefits, then sure.


but ruining marriage to appease gays, is stupid

ie... a male bride......................is an oxymoron

 

wow...............


a family line has a homosexual, and another family member makes more babies and you believe that is genetic?

it is antagonistic (by choice)


then i wonder how many see the garbage in this:

this paper is made by wingnuts, for wingnuts

and is about as solid as wet toilet paper

 

There's solid statistical evidence for it. Many, many peer-reviewed papers support the conclusion.

Do you have statistical support for that statement above a 95% confidence interval? Or just your own braying?

Evidence, or just base calumny against people who actually know how to utilize statistics and real evidence?

 

it aint

epigenetics is based on environment.

The concept of homosexuality being from 'environment' is what i have been claiming from DAY ONE.

of birth; a hermaphradite or straight................... the rest of all gay preferences are learned or as them studies share 'antagonistic'



kind of like what these threads are to me, a bunch of whiners that have a hard time with reality and just causing me to learn more methods of telling it like it is. (i hate seeing people hurt when waking up to reality, but when people have become acclimated to listening and observing other peoples lies, find the evolution in me)

 

There's still a large genetic component. Especially since you've done jack-all squat to actually find a counter-argument to my evidence.

By up-regulating or down-regulating gene expression.

Epigenetics is environmental influence on the genome, almost exclusively relegated to the developmental phase. And, of course, as it influences the expression of various alleles, it is also genetic in origin.

Except not really.

You should really see a psychologist about your issues with projection.

When "telling it like it is" implies "I won't offer a shard of evidence and just bray out posits."

¿Que va?