If atheism is so enlightened...

So you are admitting that the evangelical Christians that I mentioned, such as Ray Comfort, Kirk Cameron, or Kent Hovind are the leaders for Christianity as well, then?

So, the Israelites, with the power of an omnipotent deity were unable to treat their captives with dignity or engage in non-genocidal tactics? Either your God is then not omnipotent, or just morally evil. Instead of attempting to help the Israelites gain land through non-genocidal means, he simply told them to kill the Canaanites outright.

Once again, you're ignoring the context that a supposedly omnipotent being told them to do it in that way. It wasn't a secular initiative like you seem to be implying. Your OMNIPOTENT GOD said that genocide was okay.

You are looking through a secular lens of history. I am looking at your Bible, where a supposedly omnipotent God couldn't protect his people without telling them to go genocide someone else because they were pagans.

Wow. That is just terribly bull(*)(*)(*)(*) special pleading, Neutral. Why could you not eliminate slavery outright? Why could your God not say that it was intolerable and should at least be eliminated progressively? Instead we get a promotion of slavery. There is no "slavery is bad" denouncement ANYWHERE in the Bible.

I have repeatedly asked you a question. What about sexual slavery and the buying of foreign slaves? How does the condemnation of that equate to suicide? You simply keep touting this bull(*)(*)(*)(*) line without explaining HOW sexual and the foreign slave market promoted "peace".

You are consistently making a strawman argument that I have attempted to rectify about four times now with you simply ignoring what I say. I am not calling you a slave owner, nincompoop, I am saying that Christianity's Bible can be used to support slavery with its multiple verses that condone it. That is all.

Who is turning a blind eye to modern day slavery?

So atheism isn't the cause because atheism doesn't have a holy book to justify slavery. YOUR group does. That is the difference between atheism and actual religions.

Really, how does the killing of non-believers, homosexuals, and rape victims protect Israel from the larger states? And no, Israel was not "defending its home" when they decided to genocide the Canaanites, it was TAKING OVER the land that was the Canaanites because God told them to.

I'm not calling you a slave owner or a genocidal maniac. You have created this strawman argument wherein I have somehow called you one. I didn't. Grow up and get over the fact that I didn't.

Furthermore, I am not defending the actions of these atheists, I am saying that ATHEISM didn't cause it, a blind following of Communist principles did, which is EXACTLY what that Wiki article states.

 

Yep, whether they are the premeinent leaders is another question entirely. But I acknowledge that they have influence upon the body of Christianity - probably a lot less than the Pope or the Bishop of Canterbury, etc.

But they do have more influence than little Jane Smith of LIttel Rock parish #4 don't they. Certainly better than trying to pretend that Christians have no leaders when clearly they are there.

Once again, what is this dread fascination with having to have God come in and solve everything for us? Why don;t you actually read the Bible, remember what God's plan is, why we are separated from him, free will/agency, and perhaps come up with an arguement that actually acknowledges elements of our scripture that you have been made familiar with on multiple occassions.

Sure i am ... I have never addressed that point as you drone into yet another atheist piece of blind dogma that deliberately misquotes our faith and what God will and will not do. Why does God need to solve a problem that YOU can solve by yourself? Why would God come down and slaughter people to secure someone's home when the land owners can do it themselves?

Why isn't God giving youa little red corvette? Hmmm ... an aspect of our faith that I am sure NO ONE has ever addressed.

No, I am looking at historical fact, contect, and watching you delibetrately ignore both so you can deliberately smear our bible to call us all slavers. Excuse it all you want, but my guess is the smear is about avoiding having to challenge your of faith ... which lead to to erroneously conclude that you were surrounded by slavers. Whose fault is that?

So, God should eliminate slavery by makig us slaves and emoving our free will? What a wonderful way to eliminate slavery, by enslaving EVERYONE?

All men are created equal, are the children of God - all men. What were Jesus two greatest commandments? But then, like thousands of years of history, you are ignoring massive parts of our faith, ignoring guidance given for a specific situation and making them analogous to the ten commandments.

Yep, most people are smart enough to catch the inferrence. Even though there is nothing at all in atheism that condemns slavery, nor anything that proclaims the equality of all men, somehow the lack of exactly what you demand in YOUR faith does not equate to universal acceptance of slavery in atheism.

Perhaps you should try applying your standards to your position first? Because by the standard youjust applied, you atheism with no doctrine does not support equality and id clearly filled with slavers.

Your standard.

Its been repeatedly answered. I am sure that you think you have some great intellectual trap, and it must be galling that no one will walk stupidly into your obvious trap, but the question has been answered repeatedly - just not the way you want it too.

Ahem, as we are talking about avoided issues, would you care to address why so many atheists want to enact policies that make sexual bondage and human trafficking WORSE? How does THAT promote peace, dignity, abolition? Right here and now, where it is supposedly already a crime? Whereas in ancient Judea it was not ... and it would take 4,000 years to change that ... a little bit of context you simply leave off, no?

Atheists support slavery right here and now, you are condemning dead men for supporting it thousands of years ago? Yep, that is indeed atheism.

When you tell me that the Bible commands us to own slaves, and I am a Christian? Well, we call what is above rationalization.

They do not condone it, as I have repeatedly told the dogmatic trolls of atheism, they tell slaves not to commit suicide by rising up against their oppressors, it reminds them of their value, their dignity, and asks for patience while the hearts of men are changed. And you know what - it was the followers of Christ who did just that, then as now, (Rachael Project) its Christians fighting slavery ... and atheists ... doing nothing, but calling innocent people slavers, and then making emotional excusesto claim that this is not what you ae doing.

Well, lets test that shall we? Atheism in the past has condoned slavery, therefore all atheists are slavers.

Did I, or did I not, just imply quite strongly that you were a slaver?

How many times do I have to spell it out?

Yep, you just have to rationalize anything, and its good atheism ... but not really atheism when called on it. Typical.

And our book does not support slavery, its assinine, immature, and out right flame bait to imply otherwise. Simple, deliberate misquoting, with the sole intent to slam someone else. Shameful.

Oh well, your faith choice.

Ah deuteronomy, I've addressed this multiople time, feel free to look it up, but lazily dragging in this bit of scripture, scripture listed and widely chastized as a failed attempt to approach God through rules, jsut highlights your deliberate ignorance of our faith, and steadfast adherence/blind devotion to standard quatataions from random atheist web sites.

Maybe you should actually read the Bible?

See above.

No, you are ratioanlizing by coming up with a stupid excuse to try and make atheism somehow super human. It was atheists that lead the revolution, corrupted nominal systems, and murdered millions, in multiple places no less! I guess, like oft quoted Richard Dawkins, it has NOTHING to do with atheism?

In short, exactly as charged, the sole intent is not a search for truth, but a deliberate smear so you can point your finger derisively at others.

Once again REALITY.

You continue to trupet slavery, but somehow, no Christians or Jews own slaves. Yet somehow we support, indeed are commanded, to support slavery? Your propoganda conflicts, quite badly, with reality.

In short, its simple prejudice. The nihilistic basis of modern atheism.

 

Fine, I'm willing to admit that they are atheist leaders in the same vein as Comfort is a Christian leader. Meaning, that they may be speakers about their respective positions, but in no way do they represent the totality of atheist/Christian thought.

God routinely intervened to help the Israelites on numerous occasions. He even made the entire Egyptian community suffer just so one man would let the Israelites go. So, why is it that when God intervenes he doesn't try to avoid suffering when he clearly can? Why must people suffer just to please God?

Once again, you are implying that I wanted God to solve all the problems for myself. I am being critical of God when he DID intervene in the Old Testament. Instead of simply avoiding death and suffering, he actively supported it. That means your God is either not omnipotent or simply doesn't care about suffering that he causes.

No, God should have told the Israelites that slavery was not morally justifiable, just like he did with the other 613 commandments.

Except women, obviously, right... and anybody that wasn't an Israelite?

Atheism isn't a set of beliefs, it is one lack of belief. Your religion is a set of beliefs codified. Atheism doesn't have that. Do you WANT us to create a holy book or something, is that what you are asking us to do?

The difference is Christianity PROMOTES slavery.

No, I am condemning your GOD for supporting it thousands of years ago. And no, you haven't even had the gall to talk about the Bible's promotion of sexual slavery or the buying of foreign slaves. What you HAVE done is continually plead that atheists are supporting sexual slavery now and that somehow banning sexual/foreign slavery would cause these people to simply die off in some unknown combat. And when you say that, I have no idea what you're referring to.

There are many things the Bible commands and defends, yet you seem to do fine on avoiding those verses.

Abolition occurred in more than just Christian states. Yes, Christians in the United States were at the forefront of the abolition movement, but you're simply ignoring the secular abolishments in almost every other country before then.

Secondly, the Bible DOES condone slavery. It says that Israelites can buy foreign slaves and beat indentured servants within an inch of their life. What, God didn't hold enough sway with the people he saved to simply say "no buying of foreign slaves, no selling of your daughters into sexual slavery, and NO BEATING INDENTURED SERVANTS!"?

What holy book of atheism condones slavery?

Yes, you did, because you added the claim "therefore all Christians are slavers". I have never added that to what I have said. In fact, I'm telling you right now that all Christians are not slavers.

It is only atheists? No Christians? No other religious group?

ATHEISM DOES NOT DO ANYTHING GOOD OR BAD. I have repeatedly told you that. There is no "good" atheism and there is no "bad" atheism just as there is no "good" theism and "bad" theism. Religions and other ideological beliefs produce that.

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

Then what are these verses if not EXPLICIT allowances of slavery?

I've looked at your post history. You dismiss entire books of the Old Testament? I mean, Jesus even referenced Deuteronomy.

Oh, I have.

No, what I have repeatedly tried to tell you is that atheism is nothing but the lack of belief in God. There is nothing beyond that. Simply because atheists also hold other beliefs doesn't mean those beliefs stem from atheism. Christianity has an entire book filled with atrocities and evil commandments that can be used to justify evil things. Atheism doesn't have that.

 

This

I have never read a single book on 'Atheism'.

Why would I have?

It is why I have never read a book telling me why I shouldn't believe in Ghosts or Leprechauns.

I am aware that there are people who call themselves Athiests who are against religion in any form- but they don't represent me- I never asked them to- nor do they claim to represent me.

I just don't believe in any God.

And no- I don't think atheism is 'enlightened'- just the opposite- I don't think anything is enlightened.

Keep religion out of government, and I am fine with us all getting along- i don't care if you want to put up a creche at Christmas on my town square as long as you are okay with Muslims putting up something for Ramadan. Yes I will object to you putting up a stone monument for the 10 commandments, but if one has been there for the last 50 years- leave it alone.

 

If such a book did exist, it would be bloody boring. Pages of nothingness.

 

or there is another scenario - something happens that only the few with a certain trait can survive

 

That's very telling

 

Yes it is.

It specifically tells that most theists' (mis)conceptions of what atheism is about are wrong.

 

Except the book would actually be 500 pages of "Christians are stupid! Religion is responsible for all crimes ever committed! Imagine a world without religion! etc etc"

 

Nope,, the opening line would be "In the beginning man created god".

The rest would be blank pages.

 

I think it is mostly liberal atheists who tear down religion. I find it to be a useful tool.

 

Not a single one of those are atheist beliefs.

Atheism is nothing more than the lack of belief in a god.

 

You're confusing atheism with anti-theism. I don't blame you, many atheists make that mistake too. But a mistake it most assuredly is.

 

And most atheists would never read it.

Because most of us don't care about any of that. We just don't believe what you believe.

 

The way I understand the terms, they are not mutually exclusive. An atheist doesn't have to be an anti-theist but it's a pretty darn good bet that an anti-theist is an atheist as well.

 

While correct, this isn't very relevant. Anti-theists are indeed almost guaranteed to be atheists, but that's not important here: the only thing that IS important is that it is NOT true the other way around: not all atheists are anti-theist.

 

Agreed! Actually I didn't read the whole thread so I appologize for being out of context...