If you refuse the vaccine, you don't matter. It's the people you infect that matter!

The Pharmaceutical Manufacturers are having a field day. The Sun reported that the U.S. Taxpayers cost $19.50 per Covid dose for the Pfizer vaccine.

 

Oh if only that were the real argument. I mean do you need vax passes, to fire people from jobs, quarantine camps, etc for people "nobody gives a crap" about?

Literally your argument is...nobody cares... so then the leaving them alone part should be easy to follow.

Only it isn't and you don't leave them alone because you don't really NOT CARE or NOT GIVE A CRAP. When you seek to segregate, humiliate, and deny rights to them that goes well beyond "not caring".

Please make yourself familiar with NEGATIVE vs POSITIVE rights.

https://blog.libertasbella.com/negative-vs-positive-rights/

Most of our rights are negative. We exercise them normally and it is the job of the government to stay out of the way. The government shouldn't be telling you who you can love, what you can learn, think or say and who you are allowed to ASSOCIATE with as a norm.

The government just has to stay out of the way.

You've flipped this reasoning upside down to make it so that others must engage in an action in order for you to obtain your rights.

You can imagine how well this would go over in other realms. If the government demanding you associate with others so they'd have someone to associate with, love someone so they will be loved, a speak so others can feel spoken for or heard. That is very different.

No one is seeking to deprive someone of their vaccine, mask or distancing. They are simply saying it is not their job to mitigate all of your risk. By your reasoning all actions are communal and there aren't individual rights, just common good rights.

Breathing and living your life normally isn't an attempt to kill others or make others unsafe. The reasoning there is absurd at face value. It is desperate reasoning appealing to emotion since it cannot stand on reason.

You know that old axiom about your right to swing your arms ends at my nose. You change it to if you fear your nose might get hurt due to it being large, sensitive to breezes, or you have allergies, then I'm no longer allowed to swing my arms ever. It must be stopped for "safety" and "the common good."

No, that reasoning doesn't fly. That reasoning is just crap.

You've done the basic math on this right? You know the average death is almost exclusively older than current life expectancy and has an average of 2.6 comorbidities.

Before we had the vaccine, many were willing to at least put up with this bad reasoning to "save Grandpa" especially since all the promises, including those by Trump were that the vaccine was right around the corner.

So we waited, Grandpa should be saved by now but the authoritarians crave more. They will not give up their "emergency" powers and want to make COVID a permanent norm.

No thanks.

 

Wrong! Vaccinated individuals are STILL less likely to become infected with the Omicron variant. Especially with the mRNA vaccines. So those who choose not to vaccinate are still irresponsibly putting the life of others at risk. Whereas vaccinated individuals have done their minimum duty as human beings to protect others.

 

I said nobody gives a crap if they die. If they die, deep down many people will think "they deserved it!" I have read comments by doctors and nurses and... yeah... they try to treat them the same. But something deep down is telling them "this idiot got himself here because of his/her own stupidity". "Nobody cares" might be a bit hyperbolic. But it's hyperbolic by design in order to make a point.

Those who are fired need to be fired because they are irresponsible individuals who are willing to put others at risk. And if they are irresponsible in their everyday ethics, what would drive an employer to believe that they are responsible in their work ethics?

There is NO right to put the life of others at risk by infecting them with a potentially deadly (or with life-long consequences) disease.

The rest of your post is B.S. until you address THIS fact.

 

The rest of my post isn't B.S. Your entire premise is B.S. as was explained with the concept of negative vs positive rights. Your delusional screaming that all the breathing people walking around are just going to magically kill you and other via there intentionally use of microorganisms and breathing is hysterical nonsense.

That nonsense is doubled when you or anyone else with a functioning brain realizes the vaccines are not sterilizing. They do not stop you from getting sick or carrying a viral load. Vaccinated persons can still infect others and do so frequently. They do this so frequently that it explains exactly why the vaccinated are still required to engage in masking, distancing, etc.

 

I also care about what happens with their medical bills. They can use up a lot of somebody's money before they go.

 

If the vaccine doesn't prevent one from getting the virus and passing it on then how will getting it protect others?

 

Your question would have readers believe you can't differentiate between what it means to be more or less likely to create a danger to someone vulnerable to catching Covid 19.

That is also why we have an ignore feature on this forum. One has the choice to what they feel are deliberately obtrusive responses.

 

In other words you have no answer then.

 

There is so much poisoning going on....its crazy....mental.

 

It probably does a little bit, but the effectiveness rate for that is probably not very great, and very little actual research has been done specifically looking at that.

 

We can hope so.

 

Pseudo-intellectual B.S. NOBODY has a right to put others at risk by infecting them with a potentially deadly disease. Period! That should be obvious to everybody. Your refusal to address it and the fact that, instead, you try to change the subject makes it obvious that you actually AGREE with it.

 

There was doubtless some before the vaccines were released because the three were judged on how they functioned to prevent Covid. Pfizer was 95% effective? as an example no news is telling us there were 100 breakthrough cases of covid per day last month so we don't have a daily count of those, they just get counted as covid cases. The only indication we get that they are different is when there is an outbreak in professional sports where the vaccination rate is bumping 100% or in the White House where it damn well should be 100%. Somebody does track breakthrough cases that result in hospital stays or death though so both do happen.

 

Um, no. Actually discussing that is more complicated. And referring to "effectiveness rates" is actually meaningless unless we are specifying what exactly it is that that thing is effective at doing.

A medical treatment could be 90% effective at one thing and only 15% effective at something else, so it doesn't just have a single "effectiveness rate".

 

That's true. At some point it was reported that insurance companies were considering not covering hospital costs for people who refused the vaccine. I would wholeheartedly support that. Especially those on Medicare.

 

COVID-19 Vaccine Effectiveness | CDC

 

No, sorry, misleading and wrong and it is much more complicated than that.

You are aware we've had many discussions about this in other threads?

You think I will waste time arguing about it on page 19?

(I think the actual real "effectiveness" rate might be more like 70% or maybe 80%, but that would be another discussion)

 

As a free-market Libertarian-leaning, I believe insurance companies should be able to set up whatever policies they like, so long as they are upfront about it with consumers before they pay their premiums.

Of course those on the Left want to force the insurance company to have to cover things, and give the parties involved no choice.

Anyway, doesn't this just once again prove that so many of those on the Left have blatant double standards? You don't seem to have many principles, Golem.
Force insurance companies to give people coverage for something, even though those people never paid for it, one moment, and then the next moment let insurance companies take away coverage from people even though they have already paid for it.

Maybe you don't see any problem with altering the terms of the contract after it has already been agreed upon and made, but I do.

 

No! I'm perfectly fine with doing away with insurance companies altogether and having a government agency ensure the human right to healthcare. But if insurance companies want to do it for a profit.... fine. But that doesn't stop healthcare from being a right. So either they protect it, or they leave it to those who are constitutionally obligated to protect our right to live.

As for not covering people who refuse to take the shot... I know idiots also have the right to healthcare. But i would not object to taking a look at the discussion of whether putting, not only their own lives, but the life of others at risk means forfeiting your right to healthcare (just like it should also mean forfeiting your right to freedom). And I would stand on the side of those who said that it did.

 

That really does not solve this beyond being a motivator. These bills are thousands and thousands of dollars for severe covid and very few of us can afford to pay more than a slice of this in our lives. It just moves the rest of bill to the hospitals and raises our rates. I don't think there is an answer on the funding.

I normally see medical costs as something bankruptcy proceedings should automaticially cover, but not in the case of anti vaccers and their covid costs. Let them loose their homes first and pay those hospital bills.

 

You know how you can tell that an argument can’t stand on it’s own… when you just keep dismissing it and claiming what amounts to murder and genocide to try to provoke an emotional response rather than deal with the reasoning. When we get to ANY of the specifics down below there is zero change the work out, are manageable, make any sense, work, etc.

The point is you don’t really want it to work. You just want the control and authority. Your accusations are just a type of force and when they don’t work I have no doubt you’ll endorse deeper levels of force. When calling people murderers doesn’t fly, you’ll endorse the deeper force.

So what you don’t realize here is you are making medical care and medical insurance a zero sum game. You are saying that when people’s decisions don’t make financial sense or fit within the analytical model, then it’s fine they be denied care or just die.

Think about that beyond COVID. It’s clear you haven’t done much thinking about it at all.

You aren’t a person with rights. You’re a cost to benefit ratio equation and if you’re on the wrong side of that equation then too bad for you.

You’re doing it for COVID but it can be applied everywhere else too. AIDS, abortion, obesity, and all those wonderful pre-existing conditions. Make the wrong choices and lose your rights.

You say that for COVID today but others will say it for whatever they want later. You open that Pandora’s Box and it you don’t get to decide to close it for others.

Exactly on point. No principals and no way to make what is being advocated here. It isn’t even a workable thought model. It’s isn’t even just about hypocrisy. It literally isn’t even usable in the real world.

So no healthcare and no freedom. Do you just want them put in camps where they are killed? It’s only human rights we are discussing here. Nothing too important. They’re subhuman and don’t deserve rights. You’re a literal Nazi here.

In any nation with universal health care are you hearing discussions like this? I think you should wake up to the fact that people are using this to make you hate your fellow humans and growing support for an authoritarian impulse to harm others using your fear.

You should resist that. Once they are done with one group, they’ll move on to you.

 

I don't hate anti vaxers. I dislike the unpaid medical costs that they are piling up because nobody has a good idea on where those costs should go if the anti-vaxers cannot afford to pay them when they get severe or complex covid. https://money.com/covid-19-hospital-cost-by-state/ If you have someone you prefer pay all those bills, feel free to tell us all.

 

Yeah but the CDC website does not tell you about the satanic cult and Luciferase https://www.dailydot.com/debug/luciferase-covid-vaccine-conspiracy-theory/ or the govt spy 5G microchip it embeds in your arm!

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2021/12/19/health/omicron-vaccines-efficacy.amp.html

Maybe you should call the NYT and tell them that. Yes it will reduce severity but you still will get it and you still can spread it.