Hayden said that IF they are tracking a foreign call and it comes in to a domestic number of a citizen, then they have to go back to the FISA court for approval to look at that conversation......and I would assume with a good reason for why they want to see the conversation. Are you under the impression that it's not possible that an American citizen might be working with foreign terrorists? As the 9/11 Commission said.....we failed to connect the dots. We fail again to connect the dots and it could be so much worse. The Patriot Act won't be repealed. That doesn't mean their entire company had access. Snowden has Security clearance at the level that he could. He had to have LIED when he got that job about his intentions. Otherwise, he would have never gotten it. He also had to have LIED whenever he signed the statements that he would agree to never copy and/or share any classified information he comes in contact with. Well, you might notice it is ME who wants him brought to justice; you are demanding an immediate pardon for him as a mere whistle blower.
They should have to get a warrant from a regular court to go after a US citizens data. Yes... they did say that. Failing to connect the dots. They needed an aparatus to do so that they were already expanding. That was a tremendous opportunity. We will see. I am not suggesting their entire company had access. Nobody should have access that is not an NSA employee. Nobody... and they must be held to a HIGHER standard, than you or I, not the other way around. What do you suppose would happen to you if you got caught lying to congress? He is a mere whistleblower. He stole secret documents, and shared them with unauthorized persons (of the press). That is what he did. I would like him to face justice for that, but if it comes down to all or nothing? Nothing. I will make you a deal. Once there is enough, if there is such a thing, evidence to convince you of what you consider to be illegal surveillance, because Paula Broadwell isn't enough... that I can provide from a top secret program that was promised wasn't doing exactly what it is doing... but once there is enough... everyone involved who has violated the public trust and carried out illegal surveillance does as much time as Snowden. Deal? See... I get where you are at. Where I am at is that when you have a nobody telling the truth... and a power telling lies... and this imbalance persists... I side with the nobody. I am nuts that way.
You still are refusing to acknowledge the true dilemma in your case against the government. Most common sense individuals know the government "could" spy on them. The question is do they spy on us with these programs? Just having them stored in a database, no one is actually spying on you unless they access the database. What's the difference between the government having this metadata to search for phone pairs or email pairs, then them serving a warrant to google or yahoo for this information? The only difference is the conspiracy behind them being corrupt. It's no different then them having control of the military, nuclear codes, police, access to all car registrations, planes, criminal records, etc, etc. This is really not that big of a deal despite how you are portraying it.
Trust is such a sweet thing to witness. Until the target of that trust lies to congress about the issue. Then it is sad.
Snowden was not elected to anything. He's already publically admitted he took the job at Booze Allen for the purpose of getting to classified information. And that's exactly what he did. He's the one who has broken laws. The American people demanded after 9/11 that EVERYTHING be done to at least try and make sure nothing like that....or worse.....EVER happens again. Bush promised to do so. And Obama promised to change things back; but didn't.....even escalated it. Therefore, I have to believe that Obama has now, as president, seen some of the plans and information about these groups that made him realize he couldn't. He has now seen things that you and I haven't.
I understand how you feel. I just don't care. The founding fathers were smarter than George Bush. Voted for him twice. Supported both wars. Supported the PA as a temporary measure in a new war. This technology has never been about terrorists. Do you want to start looking at facilities and dates of construction? How do you think that overnight these 5 nations magically had an application for the patriot act and FISA? 9/11 couldn't have come at a better time during project development. And he is not the ONLY person who has broken laws... national and international. A lot of nations with their hands in the cookie jar here. Snowden broke the "don't tell on us" laws. The US has broken the "trust us" laws.
We have an inherent amount of trust in the people we elect. They have a lot more power to be corrupt than having your metadata.
And when that trust is violated, I demand accountability. You require of yourself only more trust. See it all the time on Maury... but the grown ups are talking now.
Great post. Unfortunately I doubt you will talk any sense into these people. They've been starting one Snowden is God thread after another. All the government is doing is making a back up of some of the information private corporations are warehousing, data mining, selling to others, and attempting to use to manipulate you into spending more money. In contrast with what private corporations are doing with the data this is benign.
Yea, the grown ups have been talking and they say these programs are not a violation of the law. Maybe it's time you grow up.
They are just purely conspiracy theorist. And despite the fact they have absolutely no evidence of the government using any of these programs to abuse innocent american citizens, they have to dive in to all the imaginary "liberty" or "privacy" type nonsense. It's all just a game to them because they have no accountability, they have nothing to lose. It just simply doesn't matter. In the real world, it is necessary for the government to have some ability to understand what communications are going throughout our cyberspace and airwaves. That's just common sense. I need to know they are abusing this information for some political or ideological purpose because they have much more access to things that they can use to destroy us if they wanted to. Having access to phone or email metadata is absolutely useless to them other than being able to track terrorist communications.
Paula Broadwell was a terrorist? I thought she was a US Citizen who was not affiliated with terrorism at all. - - - Updated - - - This thread isn't about Snowden. I would like to not talk about Snowden at all. Seems a great distraction for the government... and you. I hope the OP gave you more insight on metadata.
So you have one example of someone who was associated with the head of the CIA? Interesting logic. Let me know when you have some real cases. Until then, just put in your signature that you are a conspiracy theorist to warn everyone who reads your posts.
I never bought the "it's just useless metadata" pony show. If it wasn't detailed and useful they wouldn't put so *******n much effort into getting it and keeping it quiet that they are doing it.
So... proof is not enough. You want more proof. You think the FBI should be using the NSA to spy on the CIA and innocent US Citizens they may or may not be (*)(*)(*)(*)ing. You want me to provide you proof from a top secret program which demonstrates abuse of a grossly unaudited system by the very people who run it, shroud of scandal lies and aggression. I'll get right on that. Who, in your mind, is it NOT OK to spy on? Can the NSA spy on the IRS? The IRS handles various terrorism things. What about police? If you are a government employee are you just expecting you have no rights to privacy? What if your name is just Tahrik al-Mahoudi and your family came from Yemen? Egypt? Is that enough? Cause you call relatives and there is a credible threat in your town? How much of the population do I have to exclude to try and find you MORE proof?
Does anyone remember when the president was first elected... and he had that blackberry addiction? Would not give up his phone... and... our people were worried about it? That hostiles could use triggerphishing to track him? Was a big tadoo. http://news.cnet.com/8301-13739_3-10159055-46.html This is because we were giving everyone and their brother access to this system. http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/jun/23/mi5-feared-gchq-went-too-far So what did we do? Build a dark network which uses normal systems Want a neat question? Who all is on that network? http://www.nbcnews.com/id/52377004/ns/business-motley_fool/#.UdophRzypRQ
You have to find a systemic abuse of the program. Not one example that isn't even related to this program. Just like there are corrupt cops that do bad things, doesn't mean we get rid of our police force. Let me when you have real evidence because so far you just sound like a petty whiner.
That's me... whining about the constitution... Again. Who are you OK with having their privacy invaded. I cannot show you systematic abuse if you believe it is just expected.
Everyone on this forum is so concerned that they stopped using their cellphones and don't use the Internet anymore. Privacy is a thing of the past.
Everyone in Germany was so concerned that they stopped the holocaust. I just don't know what to do with folks like you. We can fix this.
You can't show me systemic abuse, because it doesn't exist. There is no doubt the government has access to this data, what you have to prove is that they actually access it for anything other than what they are legally allowed to. And then you have to provide real evidence that they are using this data to potential harm american citizens. And not some fabricated story about the CIA's mistress. I mean a systemic abuse. I'll tell you before you even try to justify your ridiculousness, that it doesn't exist. Your paranoia is no reason for the government not to set up safety measures over our communication channels. Sorry to burst your bubble. - - - Updated - - - Yes, because a database of metadata is the gateway to another holocaust. That is wonderful logic!!
Systemic abuse is simple to prove. You refuse to state who you expect are supposed to be spied on. Let me riddle you this... knowing we have this... why didn't we know where Ambassador Stevens was while overseas in a 12 hour protracted attack by terrorists?
Knowing we have what? Was Stevens making phone calls during those 12 hours? Systemic abuse against innocent Americans. Please show me all the abuse American civilians have been receiving because of these programs.
You need to tell me who innocent Americans are. You do not consider Petraeus or his girlfriends to be... I need parameters. You did not read the OP. The phone doesn't even need to be on to get all of this data. They can turn the mic on your phone on... even if the phone is off... and use it as a roving bug. Read the OP. Click the links. Use the apps.
