Jacob Blake

So when Randy Weaver didn't comply with US Marshals, was he responsible for the fire fights that led to the deaths of his son and wife? An older example, but one of non-compliance. I mean, the Marshals were only there because he didn't show for a court hearing date, right, so he should have complied and gone home to his wife and son, right?

 

Absolutely!

 

That's probably why you shouldn't be a cop then.

See my example of Randy Weaver, obviously an older example, of non-compliance. Do you agree that in all cases compliance should happen? Both Jacob Blake and Randy Weaver didn't comply, so they brought the consequences upon themselves? They are one in the same, right?

 

WHAT!

You would risk your life? Thank God, you do not work in law enforcement or the military.

 

Ruby Ridge? WOW that out of left field and far more complicated then what's being discussed here. Actually border line off topic to be honest..

 

WOW, I was agreeing with you ¯\_(º¸º)_/¯

 

Apples and oranges. He was not home and a danger to no one. In fact, Randy Weaver, in testimony before the Congress, stated that all that needed to happen was have the Sheriff come to his property and talk to him. He said he respected the local sheriff and even ran for the position of sheriff against him. But that would have been bad for the Clinton/Reno reputation to have a lovely county sheriff bring him in. The FBI HAD to kill someone to show they were serious.

Same holds true for the Waco debacle.

 

I don't think so, in fact, I think it compares all too well hence why you protest too much. Let's see:

A man had a warrant out for his arrest. That was true, Randy Weaver had one and had a court date set. Also true in this case.
Randy Weaver didn't show for his court date. That is true. It appears to have been a clerical error on the date, but law enforcement didn't know that. In this case, it isn't clear if law enforcement knew any more about Blake. So also, a possible lack of information at play.
When confronted by police, Randy Weaver did NOT comply. Neither did Jacob Blake near as we can tell from the video.
Randy Weaver's son and wife were shot. Randy Weaver's wife was shot after many hours of non-compliance. Randy's son was short when US Marshals announced themselves and the boy, Randy, and a family friend refused to put down guns and submit. Blake was shot after non-compliance and reaching into his car.

So, how is this so different? I'm challenging you to have consistent ideals. And you are refusing to simply say yes or no to that. Are your ideals consistent? As in, can all non-compliance result in being shot? It's a yes or no, but I suspect you'll never answer...

 

No, when you are a criminal, you don't get to CHOOSE which cop you talk to. The events at Ruby Ridge betray everything you are saying. Randy Weaver was a suspect in a crime. He had a court date resulting from a warrant. A law enforcement gave an order. Randy didn't comply. He then didn't comply for hours after. Should he have? And why didn't he comply with the US Marshals?

See, this is your problem. Right now, you are saying a BLACK man has to comply but Randy Weaver can ignore the US Marshals and the FBI. Am I misunderstanding? If so, you should please, clarify WHEN one MUST comply with law enforcement to avoid being shot or shot at, and when one CAN IGNORE law enforcement and NOT get shot at.

 

Not at all! You are comparing a eleven day siege to a split second decision made by a arresting officer.. But enough off topic for me..

 

A split decision preceeded the seige.

There was a confrontation between US Marshals, Randy Weaver, his son, and a friend. In that split decision, the US Marshals and the Weavers started shooting at each other. This was after Randy Weaver refused to go with them. So no, not off topic, just a comparison to see if your "non-compliance with police equals the right to kill you" ideal applies equally is all.

 

I missed your Waco comment. David Koresh was accused by law enforcement of sexually and physically abusing children. So why should we have let him continue to do so? Why when they showed up at his door did he not just walk out? Why should we have let him finish his religious babble which is mockery to all religion before he complies with law enforcement? If that's the case, why can't Jacob Blake get something from his car BEFORE complying with police?

 

"When confronted by police, Randy Weaver did NOT comply."

Randy Weaver never was confronted by LEO's. The first notice he had was when his son was killed by the FBI sneaking up on his cabin from the forest. Why didn't they just drive up and announce themselves?

As for the Waco ****, All the FBI needed to do is just wait. But once again, that wasn't macho enough for Clinton/Reno. They had to attack and kill. Stupid!

 

"Why when they showed up at his door did he not just walk out?"

That never happened. They went in heavy. There was no knock at the door.

 

You mean, they showed up guns drawn and shouted commands at him? So the police in the Jacob Blake case rolled up light?

I'm all for the FBI arresting Koresh on one of his runs or at one of his concerts instead of at his compound. But they chose not to do that. Bad choice? I think so. But nonetheless, they showed up guns drawn. They didn't show up and open fire blindly into the building. We know this because even the most sympathetic to Koresh accounts indicate there was a brief discussion outside before shooting started. So again, David could have done exactly what they said. They would have arrested him and possibly others, they would have had their day in court, and everyone else would be alive. Right? If he had complied in those opening minutes, by your logic and ideals, he would be alive and so would more of his followers.

 

ATF agents stated that they heard shots coming from within the compound, while Branch Davidian survivors claimed that the first shots came from the ATF agents outside. A suggested reason may have been an accidental discharge of a weapon, possibly by an ATF agent, causing the ATF to respond with fire from automatic weapons. Other reports claim the first shots were fired by the ATF "dog team" sent to kill the dogs in the Branch Davidian kennel. Three helicopters of the Army National Guard were used as aerial distraction, and all took incoming fire. During the first shots, Koresh was wounded, shot in the hand and in the stomach. Within a minute of the raid starting, Branch Davidian Wayne Martin called emergency services, pleading for them to stop shooting. Martin asked for a ceasefire, and audiotapes record him saying, "Here they come again!" and, "That's them shooting! That's not us!"

 

You sort of have a point and I agree, HOW Ruby Ridge was handled was dumb. BUT, it wasn't the FBI. It was US Marshals. And they were scouting to ensure he didn't have booby traps or dogs that would alert him to their arrival. Just like how police can do no knock raids on suspected criminals, right? So the tactics used I find heavy handed and stupid, but you seem to endorse them when it comes to other criminals, right?

Here's an account about the initial fire fight at Ruby Ridge.

Again, there are things in here I disagree with that law enforcement. They should have rolled up to his front door, knocked, and said, "Hey Randy, you missed your court date. Everything OK? Just like the police should have rolled up on the situation with Jacob Blake with far less anxiety and fear they were dealing with someone ready to shoot them. You see, the same mistake was made at Ruby Ridge. They presumed Randy Weaver was more dangerous than he may have been. The same happened here it appears. Can you not concede that the police appear to have overestimated Jacob Blake's threat to them and others? Or are you less inclined to disagree with so called "local cops" versus federal ones? They are all cops and they all deserve to go home at the end of the day, right?

 

Again, apples and oranges.

I did NOT know that it was US Marshalls, and not FBI. It was a FBI sniper that killed his wife, wasn't it?

 

Wayne Martin is NOT an impartial observer or source, just so you know. He was complicit in David's crimes. Therefore, he has an interest in finding a way out of potential legal trouble at any time during this event and after. And why was it likely the ATF made the mistake of firing their weapon? They were better trained to use firearms with discipline than Koresh's people. His people were trained for the Apocalypse that would begin with a the government attacking them, so who in that scenario was likely to have their finger too close to the trigger? It could have been the ATF, but you don't know so we can't presume. We will never know with 100% certainty who fired first. More over, killing dogs on approach to a suspect's house is done all the time. Why can't it be done here? And does shooting a dog mean you can shoot back the police for it?

You are trying to find a detail that gets you out of applying your blanket statement, that non-compliance with the police is a crime punishable up to death without a judge or jury, instead of debating the idea/merit of that opinion. There isn't a detail that's going to save it. You have to either concede that your statement applies to all people, or it doesn't.

 

Yes, it was an FBI sniper that killed his wife.

I'm not trying to, despite how it may seem, be a total ******. I'm just pointing out that if non-compliance with the police can be punishable by death, then it applies to all equally, right?

 

I just don’t get the outrage. You have a violent felon convicted of child molestation and child rape, A man who had another warrant for a violent felony out on him, who was fighting with officers on the ground, had already been tased and was about to start a high speed chase with three children inside the vehicle.

What were the cops supposed to do? Let him drive away?

 

Is there a link to the shooting victim's child rape convictions because I cannot locate any. That being said, any prior or unrelated legal issue is not indicative as to why he was shot in the back 8 times.

 

Who are you talking about? Jacob Blake had no convictions. He had a warrant out for fighting with and alleging touching an ex-girlfriend sexually without her consent.

And the outrage is whether or not the police made the right decision to use lethal force, and it was lethal force even though he survived, in this scenario. The police are the government. If you distrust the government so much, why do you trust the police to be infallible?

 

Yes actually there is. His prior record means that the warrant he’s about to get arrested for means he will be in prison for a very long time. Which makes him even more likely to be violent and run.

But the real point is that there were three children in the car. Should he have been allowed to start a high speed chase with three children inside?

 

There were three children inside the car he was about to get into and flee with while being chased by officers. How does that not justify lethal force?