John 6 and what Jesus was saying to his disciples

How can you claim there is no eternal hell when it is so clearly indicated in various new testament texts? The devil, his angels and all the condemned people are supposed to be cast down into a fiery hell forever. That's Christianity 101

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_of_fire

Of course, it seems the idea was originally taken from the Egyptians, but then that's also pretty normal for Christian ideas.

 

You're rather cynical....

Anyway--as I said, it's not about the education received.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c3a6.htm

The difference to me seems that the reality of God is not so real to you in that you fear man more than you fear God.

My opinion is that many people think of God in an "imaginary" way and are content to do so. Their faith is not "real" in that it is a fine idea, but that is what it is mostly: an idea.

Can you imagine actually standing before the face of God? Moses shone after coming down the mountain!

Personally, although I intellectually know God knows all of me--every intimate moment and thought-- confronting that reality fully is far more daunting than facing another lowly creation and confessing my sin to the all-knowing God in that creature's prescence.

Has the seal ever been broken? And what do you care what anyone but God thinks of you?

 

You have a different idea of the purpose of the Bible than I do. It doesn't surprise me, however. Part of that confusion concerning the Bible is the result of disunity in the body of Christ--hence my opinion of the heresy of turning away from the authority of the Church.

 

Well, I hope that in the end, your perspective is correct--although I believe it is actually a comfortable fabrication you have created so as not to work at understanding God as He has revealed Himself to mankind rather than how you would make him in the universe of your own creation.

 

You know that's talking about the book of john, right? A better example would probably be 1st Tim. 3:16, or the beginning of Luke when he says others have written about this... Durandal is right, though, none of the books refer to the whole Bible as we have it now. You do, however get a plethora of references to the Torah throughout the entire Bible, and references to the whole OT from the books of the NT.

But anyway, how does John 6 support transubstantiation? It's obviously a parable. It's obviously a metaphor for Christ's death being what gives us life. They were asking Him for a sign, and the sign they mentioned as an example had to do with food. He had just done a miracle with food. It's right before the Passover: More food, ritual sacrifice that you eat.

He was basically saying "Enough with the food already! I'm talking about something more important, here! "It is the Spirit that gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I speak to you, are spirit and life."-John 6:63

So again, Why do you think this supports that doctrine of yours?

 

I believe the one-hundred plus posts prior to yours begin to explain.

 

Well, we'll find out one day. There's no getting around it.

But trust me that my belief in universal salvation - while it might make my perspective on the good news of the gospels much brighter than the perspective of those who perverted them into news of doom and gloom for most of mankind - does not make my life any easier. I am still responsible for my sins and I still have to try to lead a life that pleases God. That's certainly not always comfortable, in fact its a hard struggle at times.

 

"Do you think Jesus would let people leave him on a misunderstanding?"

That's what happened, many times.

 

You're reading Catholic doctrine into the text. That's not exegesis.

 

Part of the answer to your question can be found in your own link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_of_fire

Yes, I can imagine that judgement day will be rather uncomfortable for me: having to look ones own failings straight into the eye can probably well be compared to being tossed into a "lake of fire".

 

There are repetition and specific words in ALL of His parables. Enough with the eisigesis. In that passage from 1st Corinthians Paul is talking about eating together, (which is a gathering of brethren wherein they actually eat a meal, not perform some ritual), while there was discord between themn and some stuffing themselves, while others went hungry. Before and after that clipping from the text that you're reading into, there, Paul says this:

When he talks about discerning the body of Christ, he's talking about the church. That is obvious to anyone who honestly reads it.

 

Jesus told them why He spoke in parables:

-Luke 8

 

Sure, but you should let the text tall you what that is, not use scripture to try and justify a doctrine to which you've already committed.

 

Therefore what?

We have every reason to believe it's symbolic, no reason to think it's literal, and you're actually beginning to sound like Dan Brown, with all this logical hopscotch.

 

.Nope.

 

So what does the church see as its purpose and who gave it the authority to impose its will on everyone?

 

Parables are succinct narratives. There is no narrative Jesus is making in John 6. John 6 cannot be a "parable." Furthermore, parables are explicit similies making the comparison outright. E.g. "the kingdom of heaven is like a mustardseed" --kingdom :like: mustardseed. Or as in Matthew 25:14-30 "For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country,..." --kingdom :as: man traveling

Furthermore....

If John 6 were a parable, Jesus would have explained it to his disciples or elaborated upon his "parable" if there was misunderstanding rather than willful disbelief. The Bible evidences several examples:

Matthew 13:36,51 And his disciples came to him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds of the field.” . . . [51] “Have you understood all this?” They said to him, “Yes.”

Matthew 15:10-20 And he called the people to him and said to them, “Hear and understand: [11] not what goes into the mouth defiles a man, but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man.” [12] Then the disciples came and said to him, “Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?” [13] He answered, “Every plant which my heavenly Father has not planted will be rooted up. [14] Let them alone; they are blind guides. And if a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit.” [15] But Peter said to him, “Explain the parable to us.” [16] And he said, “Are you also still without understanding? [17] Do you not see that whatever goes into the mouth passes into the stomach, and so passes on? [18] But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a man. [19] For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, fornication, theft, false witness, slander. [20] These are what defile a man; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man.” (cf. Mk 7:17-1

Matthew 16:5-12 When the disciples reached the other side, they had forgotten to bring any bread. [6] Jesus said to them, “Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sad'ducees.” [7] And they discussed it among themselves, saying, “We brought no bread.” [8] But Jesus, aware of this, said, “O men of little faith, why do you discuss among yourselves the fact that you have no bread? [9] Do you not yet perceive? Do you not remember the five loaves of the five thousand, and how many baskets you gathered? [10] Or the seven loaves of the four thousand, and how many baskets you gathered? [11] How is it that you fail to perceive that I did not speak about bread? Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sad'ducees.” [12] Then they understood that he did not tell them to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the teaching of the Pharisees and Sad'ducees.

Matthew 17:9-13 And as they were coming down the mountain, Jesus commanded them, “Tell no one the vision, until the Son of man is raised from the dead.” [10] And the disciples asked him, “Then why do the scribes say that first Eli'jah must come?” [11] He replied, “Eli'jah does come, and he is to restore all things; [12] but I tell you that Eli'jah has already come, and they did not know him, but did to him whatever they pleased. So also the Son of man will suffer at their hands.” [13] Then the disciples understood that he was speaking to them of John the Baptist.

Matthew 19:24-26 “Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” [25] When the disciples heard this they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?” [26] But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

Mark 4:33-34 With many such parables he spoke the word to them, as they were able to hear it; [34] he did not speak to them without a parable, but privately to his own disciples he explained everything.

http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2009/08/john-6-eucharist-plausibility-of.html


No, Jesus did not elaborate or explain further; He doubled down and repeated what the disciples found offensive because he was speaking LITERALLY.

 

To protect the teachings of Jesus Christ and to provide the Body of Christ with the Sacraments. Jesus gave the authority for those things. Faith is not a matter of "imposition," you can take it or leave it. But the Church is the "pillar and bulwark of the truth." (1Tim 3). The house is open if your interested.

 

Where? Where did disciples "walk with him no more" due to misunderstanding a point Jesus was making?

 

Gen 3: And they hear the sound of Jehovah God walking up and down in the garden at the breeze of the day, and the man and his wife hide themselves from the face of Jehovah God in the midst of the trees of the garden. (walking with god)

9 And Jehovah God calleth unto the man, and saith to him, `Where [art] thou?'

10 and he saith, `Thy sound I have heard in the garden, and I am afraid, for I am naked, and I hide myself.'

11 And He saith, `Who hath declared to thee that thou [art] naked? of the tree of which I have commanded thee not to eat, hast thou eaten?'

12 and the man saith, `The woman whom Thou didst place with me -- she hath given to me of the tree -- and I do eat.'

One minute 'eat' (john 6,) the next dont eat.... but... HE (god) is that garden....


22 And Jehovah God saith, `Lo, the man was as one of Us, as to the knowledge of good and evil; and now, lest he send forth his hand, and have taken also of the tree of life, and eaten, and lived to the age,' --

23 Jehovah God sendeth him forth from the garden of Eden to serve the ground from which he hath been taken;

24 yea, he casteth out the man, and causeth to dwell at the east of the garden of Eden the cherubs and the flame of the sword which is turning itself round to guard the way of the tree of life.

mankind became conscious and began to think he was separate from the garden

 

Bishadi, in Genesis, God is not the Garden. There is, however, a symbolic tree called the Tree of Life that is representing Jesus, but the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil is not Jesus. They were only forbidden from the Tree of KGE, not the Tree of Life (until after they ate of the Tree of KGE).

 

Has nothing to do with the fear of man.It is easy to confess your sins to God as he already knows them,in fact, he is the one that brings you to repentance and forgivness. Then you are aware.

I don't take my belief with a grain of salt.

I have no fear to stand before God because I know he already knows me and every hair on my head. There is no shame in that. My problem is with the middle man knowing my sins, not because I fear him but because it is embarrassing.

Again, tell me why you feel no shame waking up in the morning and taking a shower knowing that God can see you but you would feel more humility doing that in front of a priest. I could say that you fear man more than you fear God if you try and equate embarrassment to fear.

1. I doubt it but who knows ?
2. Precisely .. which is why I cut out the middle man.

 

I guess this is just an inconvenient verse, then... oh well...

Jas.5
[16] Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects.

 

A priest is another sinner, like myself, who also takes a shower in front of God. There are matters of cultural propriety in the social constructs of this world--but that's all it is in reality. Why does the judgement of a man (what you would be embarrassed about) keep you from becoming more lowly and humble? You know--Jesus said, "he who humbles himself will be exalted."

 

It must have slipped your notice that it's also an inconvenient verse for somebody who believes in an elevated priesthood. When's the last time your priest confessed his sins to you?

No offense meant, but I suppose Matthew 23 can't be a very popular reading in a Church that's based on strict hierarchies, lets its Priests wear fancyful costumes and gives them special titles such as "father".


23 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.

5 “Everything they do is done for people to see: They make their phylacteries[a] wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6 they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7 they love to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and to be called ‘Rabbi’ by others.

8 “But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10 Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Messiah. 11 The greatest among you will be your servant. 12 For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.